Re: Why are the NYC subways suddenly a disaster?

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Postby Beautiful Jugdish » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:19 pm

holy shit i fucking hate him
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Postby Fr. Blanc » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:20 pm

beep beep. what a fucking mess
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Postby Beautiful Jugdish » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:23 pm

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Postby delgriffith » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:27 pm

If Cuomo had paid attention to this at any point in the past several years, he'd know that the 3 year/1 track proposal was discussed and debated extensively in 2016. You fucking absolute moron.
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Postby milknight » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:32 pm

would the l even be usable with one track i dont understand
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Postby The Priest » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:32 pm

yeah that is infinitely worse
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Postby rex » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:32 pm

Seems like nobody actually knows which way this is going? Like everything he does, it's sure to be outrageously cynical and a disservice to everyone who worked on or cared about the problem!
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Postby The Priest » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:33 pm

ok, how about we let the L run once a day between bedford and 1st but it goes really fast and extend the project to 50 years?

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Postby Fr. Blanc » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:37 pm

the idea, the rollout, the coverage. so upsetting
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Postby delgriffith » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:38 pm

Good news, the Metro editor of the NYT is a fucking moron!


I'm so fucking mad about this. What a slap in the face from a guy who couldn't give less of a shit.

Also just as pressing is the fact that the fucking mayor is MIA on the Fair Fares program, which was supposed to begin its rollout this week:


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Postby Beautiful Jugdish » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:40 pm

nobody in new york state i hate more than andrew cuomo
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Postby delgriffith » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:53 pm

I'm watching Cuomo's presser because I truly hate myself. He's opening by quoting Obama on "the hard issues that come to the president's desk." I'd love to watch him have a heart attack.
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Postby delgriffith » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:56 pm

OK I can't do this I'm getting so fucking angry. This is so bad.
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Postby delgriffith » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:07 pm

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Postby SabreFancS » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:10 pm

wow it's almost like the L train shutdown was never necessary in the first place and was just another part of the never ending MTA grift of public dollars.

who'd have thought?! The MTA always seemed so on the up-and-up!
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Postby delgriffith » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Swing and a miss.
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Postby SabreFancS » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:24 pm

no way, it's always only been about how the MTA (and their favored vendors), can line their pockets with more public funds
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Postby landspeedrecord » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:34 pm

the L train shutdown isn't a conspiracy jfc
rather be an idiot than a sheeple
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Postby milknight » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:35 pm

landspeedrecord wrote:the L train shutdown isn't a conspiracy jfc

prove it!
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Postby SabreFancS » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:35 pm

I see this article never got posted in the thread:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyre ... costs.html

The Most Expensive Mile of Subway Track on Earth

How excessive staffing, little competition, generous contracts and archaic rules dramatically inflate capital costs for transit in New York.


An accountant discovered the discrepancy while reviewing the budget for new train platforms under Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan.

The budget showed that 900 workers were being paid to dig caverns for the platforms as part of a 3.5-mile tunnel connecting the historic station to the Long Island Rail Road. But the accountant could only identify about 700 jobs that needed to be done, according to three project supervisors. Officials could not find any reason for the other 200 people to be there.

“Nobody knew what those people were doing, if they were doing anything,” said Michael Horodniceanu, who was then the head of construction at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which runs transit in New York. The workers were laid off, Mr. Horodniceanu said, but no one figured out how long they had been employed. “All we knew is they were each being paid about $1,000 every day.”

The discovery, which occurred in 2010 and was not disclosed to the public, illustrates one of the main issues that has helped lead to the increasing delays now tormenting millions of subway riders every day: The leaders entrusted to expand New York’s regional transit network have paid the highest construction costs in the world, spending billions of dollars that could have been used to fix existing subway tunnels, tracks, trains and signals.

The reasons for the M.T.A.’s high costs start with the sheer number of people employed.

Mike Roach noticed it immediately upon entering the No. 7 line work site a few years ago. Mr. Roach, a California-based tunneling contractor, was not involved in the project but was invited to see it. He was stunned by how many people were operating the machine churning through soil to create the tunnel.

“I actually started counting because I was so surprised, and I counted 25 or 26 people,” he said. “That’s three times what I’m used to.”

The staffing of tunnel-boring machines came up repeatedly in interviews with contractors. The so-called T.B.M.s are massive contraptions, weighing over 1,000 tons and stretching up to 500 feet from cutting wheel to thrust system, but they largely run automatically. Other cities typically man the machine with fewer than 10 people.

It is not just tunneling machines that are overstaffed, though. A dozen New York unions work on tunnel creation, station erection and system setup. Each negotiates with the construction companies over labor conditions, without the M.T.A.’s involvement. And each has secured rules that contractors say require more workers than necessary.

The unions and vendors declined to release the labor deals, but The Times obtained them. Along with interviews with contractors, the documents reveal a dizzying maze of jobs, many of which do not exist on projects elsewhere.

There are “nippers” to watch material being moved around and “hog house tenders” to supervise the break room. Each crane must have an “oiler,” a relic of a time when they needed frequent lubrication. Standby electricians and plumbers are to be on hand at all times, as is at least one “master mechanic.” Generators and elevators must have their own operators, even though they are automatic. An extra person is required to be present for all concrete pumping, steam fitting, sheet metal work and other tasks.

In New York, “underground construction employs approximately four times the number of personnel as in similar jobs in Asia, Australia, or Europe,” according to an internal report by Arup, a consulting firm that worked on the Second Avenue subway and many similar projects around the world.





and that shit is just on the construction side; you live here for even a month, and you see clear as day the amount of inactivity of actual MTA employees doing any given job, and the enormous number of them that it seems to take to do literally anything.
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Postby Beautiful Jugdish » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:36 pm

it's not a 'conspiracy' but the only people who would prefer a sustained partial shutdown to a shorter full shutdown are developers are retail and they have more influence over cuomo than rank and file voters

so there is definitely a largely anonymous group of people influencing this decision, for what that's worth
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Postby viachicago » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:38 pm

SabreFancS wrote:I see this article never got posted in the thread:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyre ... costs.html



at least you guys didnt spend a half billion dollars on a subway station that never even opened

https://www.nbcchicago.com/investigatio ... 54431.html
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Postby Beautiful Jugdish » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:40 pm

SabreFancS wrote:why didn't this article ever get posted in the thread?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyre ... costs.html

The Most Expensive Mile of Subway Track on Earth

How excessive staffing, little competition, generous contracts and archaic rules dramatically inflate capital costs for transit in New York.


An accountant discovered the discrepancy while reviewing the budget for new train platforms under Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan.

The budget showed that 900 workers were being paid to dig caverns for the platforms as part of a 3.5-mile tunnel connecting the historic station to the Long Island Rail Road. But the accountant could only identify about 700 jobs that needed to be done, according to three project supervisors. Officials could not find any reason for the other 200 people to be there.

“Nobody knew what those people were doing, if they were doing anything,” said Michael Horodniceanu, who was then the head of construction at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which runs transit in New York. The workers were laid off, Mr. Horodniceanu said, but no one figured out how long they had been employed. “All we knew is they were each being paid about $1,000 every day.”

The discovery, which occurred in 2010 and was not disclosed to the public, illustrates one of the main issues that has helped lead to the increasing delays now tormenting millions of subway riders every day: The leaders entrusted to expand New York’s regional transit network have paid the highest construction costs in the world, spending billions of dollars that could have been used to fix existing subway tunnels, tracks, trains and signals.

The reasons for the M.T.A.’s high costs start with the sheer number of people employed.

Mike Roach noticed it immediately upon entering the No. 7 line work site a few years ago. Mr. Roach, a California-based tunneling contractor, was not involved in the project but was invited to see it. He was stunned by how many people were operating the machine churning through soil to create the tunnel.

“I actually started counting because I was so surprised, and I counted 25 or 26 people,” he said. “That’s three times what I’m used to.”

The staffing of tunnel-boring machines came up repeatedly in interviews with contractors. The so-called T.B.M.s are massive contraptions, weighing over 1,000 tons and stretching up to 500 feet from cutting wheel to thrust system, but they largely run automatically. Other cities typically man the machine with fewer than 10 people.

It is not just tunneling machines that are overstaffed, though. A dozen New York unions work on tunnel creation, station erection and system setup. Each negotiates with the construction companies over labor conditions, without the M.T.A.’s involvement. And each has secured rules that contractors say require more workers than necessary.

The unions and vendors declined to release the labor deals, but The Times obtained them. Along with interviews with contractors, the documents reveal a dizzying maze of jobs, many of which do not exist on projects elsewhere.

There are “nippers” to watch material being moved around and “hog house tenders” to supervise the break room. Each crane must have an “oiler,” a relic of a time when they needed frequent lubrication. Standby electricians and plumbers are to be on hand at all times, as is at least one “master mechanic.” Generators and elevators must have their own operators, even though they are automatic. An extra person is required to be present for all concrete pumping, steam fitting, sheet metal work and other tasks.

In New York, “underground construction employs approximately four times the number of personnel as in similar jobs in Asia, Australia, or Europe,” according to an internal report by Arup, a consulting firm that worked on the Second Avenue subway and many similar projects around the world.


what you're citing is absolutely a major problem and it needs to be addressed in the interest of the longterm viability of our subway system. but separating the questions into "how to efficiently repair the subway" and "how to pay for repairing the subway," it is very clear that the route that cuomo is taking will be less efficient while in no ways addressing the very real issue of cost fattening that the MTA is notorious for.

the 1.5 year full shutdown also begs the cost issue, but it is the most efficient way of repairing the tunnel - something that was established by a long litany of experts prior to two dipshits from cornell coming around and saying exactly what cuomo wanted to hear.

so, to address your point directly, you are conflating issues here. the 1.5 year shutdown does not address all issues with the MTA, not by a longshot. but cuomo's proposal is much worse, disasterously worse.
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Postby SabreFancS » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:50 pm

I still don't completely understand the whole details of what's planned now, but it sure reads to me like Cuomo (and the engineers he found), called the bluff of the MTA's hired engineers (who had every impetus to reach their conclusion in order to get at the maximum amount of Sandy funds), and told them what they wanted to do (or how they wanted to do it?) wasn't necessary.

Governor Cuomo, joined by his experts, tells reporters that thanks to "a new design," the L train shutdown does not need to stop service between Brooklyn and Manhattan for 15 months.

"Long story short, with this design it would not be necessary to close the L train tunnel at all, which would be a phenomenal benefit to the people of New York City," Cuomo said. "There would need to be some night and weekend closures of only one tube, so service would still work."

Mary Boyce, the dean of Columbia's engineering school, and Lance Collins, the dean of Cornell's engineering school, have spent the better part of 30 minutes talking about the technical aspects of their recommendations, which include using LIDAR and "smart technology" that allow for the constant monitoring of tunnel conditions, allowing workers to identify areas of deterioration before they become problem sites.

"No closure of the service is necessary with this new design," Boyce says. "[The work] can be completed with weekend and night time closures and doing it one tube at a time. This leaves one train always available to do the back and forth."



but you're saying that 1 tube being down nights and weekends (for an unspecified amount of time), is a more "disastrous" plan than unnecessarily shutting the train down entirely for a year and half?
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Postby delgriffith » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:57 pm

I love that someone like SabreFancS looks at the endless stream of corruption that is New York politics and decides that "Cuomo (and the engineers he found)" are not the people who will stand to benefit/grift the most from this "plan." Please stop posting your addled conspiracy shit in this thread.
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Postby SabreFancS » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:58 pm

it's all a grift baby!

i personally hate the MTA just ever so slightly more than Cuomo.


and i hate them both a lot!
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Postby Beautiful Jugdish » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:00 pm

yes, there are a few reasons why its a much worse plan:
- The exact plan these two "experts" are suggesting was discussed and rejected years ago, mostly because it hasn't been tested yet and there are way too many unknowns for it to be safe to deploy through a vital piece of infrastructure
-- and on the topic of the experts - these guys are known and don't have a lot of fans. they're like the climate change denying scientists of the transit world.
- even putting aside the feasibility of the plan itself, addressing complicated engineering problems piecemeal rather than holistically and all at once necessarily raises costs and increases errors. there are miles of case studies to back this up. this is basically a foundational concept in engineering.
-- e.g.: if work is broken up by days or even hours, equipment needs to be started up and shut down each time, girders need to be reapplied, resources need to be moved on and off-site...every single time, and that is before the work actually begins. each step in this process raises cost.
--- & also: leaving a job and returning to it increases rate of error because the exact detailed status of the project must be remembered each time. this is why coding is best done all at once rather than broken up by multiple jobs.

so you've got basically two ways to view this: the MTA has literally no interest in anything beyond making money, or two guys came along and offered a solution wholly rejected by most experts, but ideally tailored to cuomo's interest - and that plan just happens to be the better solution. that to me is very unlikely.
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Postby Beautiful Jugdish » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:01 pm

like i think you're being very flip here and not really interested in learning about why this is a bad idea, but it can't be said nobody addressed the issue now.
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Postby internetfriend » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:28 pm

love to catch those nefarious engineers in their selfish plan to shut the train downs for nefarious reasons presumably
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Postby Honk For Dracula » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:43 pm

these knuckleheads down at City Hall!!
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