Are you excited for the new Jordan Peterson shit

Health insurance rip off lying FDA big bankers buying
Fake computer crashes dining
Cloning while they're multiplying
Fashion shoots with Beck and Hanson
Courtney Love, and Marilyn Manson
You're all fakes
Run to your mansions
Come around
We'll kick your ass in

Postby alaska » Thu May 31, 2018 10:00 am

freezinseason wrote:i don't understand where this idea of feminism as "rabid" or as "hatred of men" comes from other than rote stereotypes.


yeah that idea only makes sense if your idea of feminism is, like, exclusively valerie solanas and kathy acker -- but also, if that were true, you'd be cool as hell
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Postby alaska » Thu May 31, 2018 10:02 am

is this the official kathy acker thread

Image
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Postby alaska » Thu May 31, 2018 10:05 am

that's probably not even a fair characterization of her
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Postby cooly » Thu May 31, 2018 10:15 am

re: big oil

it's difficult to be precise about such a big topic, but don't you think in these kinds of discussions 'society' is being basically used to mean something like 'culture' and religion is being used to mean a particular kind of tradition involving ritual, community, some kind of ethical system, and usually a kind of theoretical apparatus?

i actually see the roots for this kind of idea in the counter-enlightenment more than in the enlightenment; proto-romantics like hamann and herder had a very different kind of understanding of the role of cultural traditions in grounding society than e.g. kant, diderot, etc. that typically involved an emphasis on the role of social practices and rituals as foundational to a culture, and i think that's what the more legitimate side of the concern for the void religion has left comes from. it's arguably also something the later heidegger is concerned with in question concerning technology etc. in a way.
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Postby murderhorn » Thu May 31, 2018 11:27 am

Image
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Postby Feech La Manna » Thu May 31, 2018 11:35 am

lmao
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Postby Feech La Manna » Thu May 31, 2018 11:37 am

TPUSA is obviously a garbage organization committing great evil in the world using an endless supply of Koch money but you gotta give 'em credit for consistently bringing the lols
badhat wrote:bike solve all problems
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Postby alaska » Thu May 31, 2018 11:43 am

for the record, this dude is a fascist and the "need" he meets in people is the same need fascism meets: the privileged perceive a decline in their material conditions (whether or not this is actually the case), and in order to account for this in a way that justifies rather than challenges their (perceived) former privilege, they turn to an ahistorical, pseudo-mystical worldview that reaffirms their belief in their own inherent and eternal supremacy by way of scapegoating an Other (hence all the sub-Jungian Chaotic Feminine bullshit)
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Postby alaska » Thu May 31, 2018 11:48 am

anyway who cares this is the official kathy acker thread. one time kathy acker interviewed the spice girls https://lithub.com/when-kathy-acker-interviewed-the-spice-girls/

I am speculating, but, perhaps due to Margaret Thatcher—though it is hard to attribute anything decent to her—a populist change has taken place in England. The Spice Girls, and girls like them, and the girls who like them, resemble their American counterparts in two ways: they are sexually curious, certainly pro-sex, and they do not feel that they are stupid or that they should not be heard because they did not attend the right universities.

If any of this speculation is valid, then it is up to feminism to grow, to take on what the Spice Girls, and women like them, are saying, and to do what feminism has always done in England, to keep on transforming society as society is best transformed, with lightness and in joy.
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Postby G_S » Thu May 31, 2018 11:48 am

this is probably a bad place for this, but glad to have you back alaska
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Postby alaska » Thu May 31, 2018 11:51 am

lol glad to see you too! <3
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Postby Jeremy » Thu May 31, 2018 11:52 am

Feech La Manna wrote:TPUSA is obviously a garbage organization committing great evil in the world using an endless supply of Koch money but you gotta give 'em credit for consistently bringing the lols


I like the use of the Official Font of Women.
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Postby alaska » Thu May 31, 2018 11:55 am

his face looks like it's a different resolution than the rest of it
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Postby Destroyevsky » Thu May 31, 2018 12:06 pm

Cosign on cooly

Peterson channels strains of the same countr-enlightenment romantic mysticism that perpetually tempts papabones.

I say this with some affection for papabones, though the feminism stuff is a hard bad whiff
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Postby Sobieski » Thu May 31, 2018 1:08 pm

cooly wrote:re: big oil

it's difficult to be precise about such a big topic, but don't you think in these kinds of discussions 'society' is being basically used to mean something like 'culture' and religion is being used to mean a particular kind of tradition involving ritual, community, some kind of ethical system, and usually a kind of theoretical apparatus?

i actually see the roots for this kind of idea in the counter-enlightenment more than in the enlightenment; proto-romantics like hamann and herder had a very different kind of understanding of the role of cultural traditions in grounding society than e.g. kant, diderot, etc. that typically involved an emphasis on the role of social practices and rituals as foundational to a culture, and i think that's what the more legitimate side of the concern for the void religion has left comes from. it's arguably also something the later heidegger is concerned with in question concerning technology etc. in a way.


Yeah I’d definitely contrast that tradition of german philology and nationalism and an identity rooted in a specific language and culture
Against like a more cosmopolitan Spinoza humanistic civics and ethics based society
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Postby broodstar » Thu May 31, 2018 1:18 pm

murderhorn wrote:Image

holy shit
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Postby object » Thu May 31, 2018 1:32 pm

i hope he just becomes a politician because he'll be terrible at it
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Postby Self Destructive Zone » Thu May 31, 2018 1:37 pm

I am sympathetic to the idea that people feel empty and purposeless because they are no longer grounded in the beliefs that insulated their ancestors from grasping the brutality and horror of their mortal existence. That said, organized religions, and cultural inheritance in general, are broad enough that some selection is required to determine their value. We aren't simply two legged apes begging the rain to water our crops and the river to refrain from flooding them. Personally, I find the Gospels compelling. Part of the anger I feel at injustice, whether it be race, gender, class, orientation, etc; is because my understanding that it is wrong, not only culturally, but absolutely. Many people read the same books and come away vindicated in their bigotry and selfishness. Those views coexist within the same religious tradition, space, and time. If I had to talk to a ancient Babylonian tomorrow, our ideas would seem absurd to each other.

There is use obviously in discussing the similarities between how disparate groups of sapiens have recognized the numinous. Our brains aren't particularly creative, and certain myths pop up again and again, whether it be dragons, or big foot, or virgins cloaked with the sun. The dangers of someone like Peterson are that they draw simple truths from a complex inheritance and use them to tell people what they want to hear. You aren't bothered by that transperson because they are different than what you are used to, a problem that is your's and which can be easily overcome with exposure; they are offensive because the order of the universe is strictly gendered from time immemorial, and they are an unnatural aberration. It doesn't matter if women have a point that men are monstrous, men should be in charge because men have been in charge since the dawn of agriculture. If our tribes are currently defined by race, a concept which didn't exist 500 years ago, its impossible want or work for a world where they are not. He flatters his followers with the lie that what they already believe is true.

Remember the only reason anyone even knows his name is that he refused to call his transgender students by their preferred pronouns. For that reason alone his championing of individualism is either cynical and hollow, or shallow and obtuse.
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Postby alaska » Thu May 31, 2018 2:06 pm

Fwiw i thought about it more and I don't think i mean that what appeals to any one JP fan is, like, a totalizing fascist ideology. i just mean that his is a set of beliefs which a) seems broadly popular because power structures are in flux and b) uncomfortably overlaps with strains of ideology which bolster a groupthinky pro-hierarchical fascist or fascist-adjacent politics. And in the big picture, the capacity for these ideologies to be partially taken up and partially disavowed is actually really important for their functioning
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Postby antoine » Thu May 31, 2018 2:10 pm

murderhorn wrote:Image


Image
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Postby kit fox » Thu May 31, 2018 2:21 pm

alaska wrote:Fwiw i thought about it more and I don't think i mean that what appeals to any one JP fan is, like, a totalizing fascist ideology. i just mean that his is a set of beliefs which a) seems broadly popular because power structures are in flux and b) uncomfortably overlaps with strains of ideology which bolster a groupthinky pro-hierarchical fascist or fascist-adjacent politics. And in the big picture, the capacity for these ideologies to be partially taken up and partially disavowed is actually really important for their functioning



yeah this dude i know who is always posting hot libertarian takes on facebook went on a big rant about how he reconciles his new found beliefs in what jordan peterson says, specifically that heirarchies are good, with his older more familiar libertarian beliefs. it's adaptability and piecemeal nature, since he never really gets TOO far in to specifics really makes it easy for people to project their own things on. i can't really think about it too much without feeling crazy so i'll just stop here.
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Postby alaska » Thu May 31, 2018 3:23 pm

he doesn't really go into the cherry-picking aspect of all this as much as i thought he did, but umberto eco's "ur-fascism" (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/) is pretty interesting reading alongside all this peterson stuff

he does make this point:

This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a sliver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

[...]

No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.


which i think is slightly different, but related. eco is talking about the internal incoherence of fascism, but i think he's demarcating what it is that makes it so adaptable: if an ideology is a big syncretistic clump of contradictory ideas which fundamentally can't be accessed through reason, you basically have to take what you want and leave other bits out
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Postby cooly » Thu May 31, 2018 7:54 pm

Sobieski wrote:Yeah I’d definitely contrast that tradition of german philology and nationalism and an identity rooted in a specific language and culture
Against like a more cosmopolitan Spinoza humanistic civics and ethics based society

yeah this is the contrast i was meaning to get at, and it's a miracle that you and destro understood what i meant now that i re-read my post.

i just meant to say that i don't think there's a misunderstanding about the way the enlightenment conception of religion and the enlightenment conception of society fit together here, but that the terms are referring to different things in this discussion (or they ought to), where religion is more related to social practices / tradition / language than explicit moral codes and society is more related to culture / the identity of a people than it is to a state per se.

i don't know enough about peterson so know how self-conscious he is about his connection to the proto-romantics / counter-enlightenment (i actually always thought all these guys were sam harris type atheist "scientists") and i don't mean to defend him, even though i am saying there is a good idea in the vicinity of this counter-enlightenment thought. peterson seems like a real piece of shit tho and i hope my posts aren't too annoying to people who want to focus on that.
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Postby Feech La Manna » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:46 pm



is papabones Cathy Young
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Postby mortimer » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:50 pm

papabones, RIP.

(he was perm'd)
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Postby mcwop23 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:17 pm

Calling women “the weaker sex” would be considered shockingly retrograde, yet ambivalent sexual encounters are easily recast as violations of women, with men presumed entirely responsible for ensuring consent.


hit the showers cathy
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Postby Self Destructive Zone » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:42 pm

lol at the idea of Peterson offering a better solution than feminism to anyone who isn't motivated by ethics in game journalism
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Postby rich uncle skeleton » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:46 pm

This thing Jeet wrote is fine:
https://newrepublic.com/minutes/148662/ ... gy-anymore

Doesn’t really add much new info other than cementing the fact that this dude is now occupationally a self-help entertainer
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Postby papabones » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:41 am

Feech La Manna wrote:

is papabones Cathy Young


This is a pretty good article that makes a lot of the points that I vaguely had in mind when posting in this thread. And it's written by a woman no less, can you believe it? She must really hate her own gender.

I've watched a couple Peterson videos where he discusses feminism after posting in this thread. If you all want Peterson criticism, I will say this: the dude is flat out irresponsible for severely exaggerating the role the feminist movement has played in the malaise of modernity. He uses women as a scapegoat for what is mostly a wider economic problem, and employs the rhetorical strategy of fascism in playing on the base emotions of young men for popular support. It's way easier for them to blame a group they encounter in everyday life for their problems than it is for them to think about the bigger, less perceivable causes that explain why they're in a bad situation. If Peterson actually intended to help them with that rather than giving them an easy outlet for their aggression, he'd still be stuck in the university and not making big money on tour giving lectures. He is a toxic figure.
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Postby Viola Swamp » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:07 am

Self Destructive Zone wrote: If I had to talk to a ancient Babylonian tomorrow


Oh shit thanks for reminding me
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