Are you excited for the new Jordan Peterson shit

Health insurance rip off lying FDA big bankers buying
Fake computer crashes dining
Cloning while they're multiplying
Fashion shoots with Beck and Hanson
Courtney Love, and Marilyn Manson
You're all fakes
Run to your mansions
Come around
We'll kick your ass in

Postby jewels » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:57 am

why is the LA times writing such terrible headlines (and I assume articles)

they're the ones who wrote "Texas school shooter killed girl who turned down his advances and embarrassed him in class, her mother says"
gold and glass wrote:When you get to heaven, do you get to see a list of which gimmicks belonged to who?
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Postby Big Oil » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:25 pm

Tronc's model is to harvest those sweet, sweet clicks.
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Postby rich uncle skeleton » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:34 pm

They published a really in-depth piece about the student walkouts in 68 for the 50th anniversary, but yeah I've been seeing a lot of hot garbage from them. Isn't Tronc selling soon?
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Postby black mamba » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:47 pm

yeah to the man that is going to "win cancer"
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Postby Big Oil » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:03 pm

alaska wrote:he doesn't really go into the cherry-picking aspect of all this as much as i thought he did, but umberto eco's "ur-fascism" (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/) is pretty interesting reading alongside all this peterson stuff

he does make this point:

This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a sliver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

[...]

No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.


which i think is slightly different, but related. eco is talking about the internal incoherence of fascism, but i think he's demarcating what it is that makes it so adaptable: if an ideology is a big syncretistic clump of contradictory ideas which fundamentally can't be accessed through reason, you basically have to take what you want and leave other bits out

the most recent Relentless Picnic ep is structured by Eco's "ur-fascism" characteristics. it's a good listen, and a lot of it is at least tangentially relevant to this discussion.

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Postby Big Oil » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:13 pm

cooly wrote:re: big oil

it's difficult to be precise about such a big topic, but don't you think in these kinds of discussions 'society' is being basically used to mean something like 'culture' and religion is being used to mean a particular kind of tradition involving ritual, community, some kind of ethical system, and usually a kind of theoretical apparatus?

i actually see the roots for this kind of idea in the counter-enlightenment more than in the enlightenment; proto-romantics like hamann and herder had a very different kind of understanding of the role of cultural traditions in grounding society than e.g. kant, diderot, etc. that typically involved an emphasis on the role of social practices and rituals as foundational to a culture, and i think that's what the more legitimate side of the concern for the void religion has left comes from. it's arguably also something the later heidegger is concerned with in question concerning technology etc. in a way.

re: the bolded, yes, and that's why I quoted the essay I did. I think in these conversations there is an assumption that something needs to "replace" religion as an anchor in society. And it's always the left/non-religious who are assumed to have that burden. It's a bit of a rhetorical sleight of hand: society has not always been with us, has not always been the "ontological frame for human existence," and by assuming that away you make religion sort of irreplaceable the way the problem is framed. The point of the essay/my post was that historically (and social scientifically), society was the replacement, and that is usually lost when Peterson's fanboys/conservatives lament the loss of religious tradition, etc.
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Postby Big Oil » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:25 pm

Sobieski wrote:
cooly wrote:re: big oil

it's difficult to be precise about such a big topic, but don't you think in these kinds of discussions 'society' is being basically used to mean something like 'culture' and religion is being used to mean a particular kind of tradition involving ritual, community, some kind of ethical system, and usually a kind of theoretical apparatus?

i actually see the roots for this kind of idea in the counter-enlightenment more than in the enlightenment; proto-romantics like hamann and herder had a very different kind of understanding of the role of cultural traditions in grounding society than e.g. kant, diderot, etc. that typically involved an emphasis on the role of social practices and rituals as foundational to a culture, and i think that's what the more legitimate side of the concern for the void religion has left comes from. it's arguably also something the later heidegger is concerned with in question concerning technology etc. in a way.


Yeah I’d definitely contrast that tradition of german philology and nationalism and an identity rooted in a specific language and culture
Against like a more cosmopolitan Spinoza humanistic civics and ethics based society

I think this is implicit in my response above but just to make it more clear: I'm not really interested in a perennialist intellectual history re: religion and culture and wasn't trying to get at that by quoting the essay I did.

My point is that there is a very particular intellectual and discursive history around the origins of "society" and "the social" and the social sciences more broadly, and the way the modern "religion and society" debate is framed obscures that history in a way that is very convenient for the Petersons and Douthats of the world.
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Postby hideout » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:13 pm

papabones... clean your room, young man
postin' makes me feel good
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Postby Prof. Horatio Hufnagel » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:57 pm

tbf i do secretly like that i can now spin my chronically messy room as anti-peterson praxis
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Postby cooly » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:30 pm

Big Oil wrote:re: the bolded, yes, and that's why I quoted the essay I did. I think in these conversations there is an assumption that something needs to "replace" religion as an anchor in society. And it's always the left/non-religious who are assumed to have that burden. It's a bit of a rhetorical sleight of hand: society has not always been with us, has not always been the "ontological frame for human existence," and by assuming that away you make religion sort of irreplaceable the way the problem is framed. The point of the essay/my post was that historically (and social scientifically), society was the replacement, and that is usually lost when Peterson's fanboys/conservatives lament the loss of religious tradition, etc.

i'm not sure if this text is meant to agree with me or disagree, but the point i was trying to make is that there is a broader meaning of 'society' according to which it always has been with us (which of course has its own understanding of what "us" means, where being a human means being discursive which means being a language user and therefore a member of a certain kind of community), and has always been the frame of existence (although it was not explicitly so until modernity.)

the reason i brought in the alternative intellectual history is that the tradition you're working with has its terms defined so that the points the other side is making seem almost incoherent, like the disagreement is a product of conceptual confusion, but i don't think that's the case.
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Postby cooly » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:56 pm

i'm thinking through this more and i feel like i should be more explicit. i'm thinking that your point is that in medieval christianity religion gives me an identity in virtue of being e.g. a born sinner, and a code of behavior which goes along with that identity, and that gives me meaning, but in modernity society gives me my identity of being e.g. a shopkeeper and some codes of behavior that go along with being a shopkeeper, but more importantly (for some thinkers in this tradition) the behaviors that go along with being a citizen, or a rational being, or maybe there's a void here (as the existentialists think.)

my sense is that there is substantive disagreement about how true that framing of the jump to modernity is between different traditions, and in particular that more anthropologically-minded traditions like the herder / hamann / humboldt one express significant doubt about that, partly on the basis of observation of other cultures and readings of history that don't show religion as defining identity single-handedly in the way religion would have to have in early christianity for that to be true.

but even if you accept that framework there's a legitimate question of if the modern roles of shopkeep or citizen are as meaningful or capable of creating meaning to people in the way that the pre-modern framework claims religion was. heidegger i think accepts something like your story and feels a unique sense of dread about the contemporary worldview for that reason -- once we become self-conscious of our power to create meanings all meanings become interchangeable and lose meaning.

idk if i'm being unfair to you. i might have misread you. and i don't think the point of view i've ascribed to you is a bad one anyways; i just think you've framed it in a way that legitimate disagreement isn't possible, which i don't think is right.
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Postby alaska » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:18 pm

Big Oil wrote:the most recent Relentless Picnic ep is structured by Eco's "ur-fascism" characteristics. it's a good listen, and a lot of it is at least tangentially relevant to this discussion.



i love this podcast! this episode is definitely what got me thinking about that eco essay again
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Postby Feech La Manna » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:58 pm

jesus christ

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Postby Feech La Manna » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:00 pm

imagine emailing your therapist in genuine distress and getting an auto-responder telling you to own the libs
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Postby john plainman » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:05 pm

I bet he got away with that HIPAA shit too
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Postby GonzO))) » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:09 pm

john plainman wrote:I bet he got away with that HIPAA shit too


If this is public knowledge now how has he not gotten into any trouble for it
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Postby Feech La Manna » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:11 pm

it was in Canada so it wouldn't be HIPAA

they have similar privacy legislation but no idea of the specifics
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Postby Feech La Manna » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:04 pm

badhat wrote:bike solve all problems
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Postby alaska » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:06 pm

an unexpected treat
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Postby Feech La Manna » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:07 pm

dude definitely screams THIS BULLSHIT AGAIN every time Elmo comes onscreen
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Postby jewels » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:07 pm

A broken clock is right twice a day
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Postby ripersnifle » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:49 pm

Feech La Manna wrote:imagine emailing your therapist in genuine distress and getting an auto-responder telling you to own the libs
lol
steakspoon wrote:sorry if sounds corny fellas but i'll always remember where i was when i heard my first big star song..the internet.
Totally wrote:also to the really creepily obsessed kid frothing NON-US SPORTS GEAR IS A COMPLEXITY-SIGNALING DEVICE FOR AGEING HIPSTER ACOLYTES WHO DOWNLOAD MOANA: I have a lot of friends (and an apartment) in Geelong. Get a fuckin life man.
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Postby mites » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:22 am

















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Postby rich uncle skeleton » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:59 am



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Postby ripersnifle » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:11 am

"do a GTA-styled art"
steakspoon wrote:sorry if sounds corny fellas but i'll always remember where i was when i heard my first big star song..the internet.
Totally wrote:also to the really creepily obsessed kid frothing NON-US SPORTS GEAR IS A COMPLEXITY-SIGNALING DEVICE FOR AGEING HIPSTER ACOLYTES WHO DOWNLOAD MOANA: I have a lot of friends (and an apartment) in Geelong. Get a fuckin life man.
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Postby broodstar » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:46 am

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Postby reversemigraine » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:57 am

Jesus Christ.

I thought he might actually be going somewhere with the whole "At first the creative people are in charge, then the managerial people take over to keep things going smoothly, but what happens when the bottom falls out?" stuff, but he literally ends the video by saying, "I dunno, your business probably dies, and anyway you're probably too dumb to understand anything I just said :shrug:"

I've sat through terrible, pre-packaged corporate management / professional development seminars that are more useful than this shit.
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Postby reversemigraine » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:57 am

At least I was smart enough to watch that in an incognito window so that it doesn't fuck with my YouTube reccs.
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Postby object » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:14 pm

Oh my youtube recs are ruined
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Postby object » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:15 pm

My guess is jordan Peterson's dick is really skinny
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