What does it mean to die?

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If you are brain dead, are you dead

Yes
17
40%
No
5
12%
It depends
4
10%
The world is a hologram
3
7%
The world is a vampire
13
31%
 
Total votes : 42

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:49 pm

This article is fantastic https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/05/what-does-it-mean-to-die
It reminded me of The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down, which is amazing, and Terry Schiavo, which is insane.

Anyway, I'm all conflicted at the moment. Does being brain dead = being dead?
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby antoine » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:51 pm

I can't wait to be dead
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Postby antoine » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:52 pm

Sorry
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:54 pm

It's your life and it's your right but I like you alive and stuff
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:54 pm

Read the article
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby mcwop23 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:55 pm

brain dead is dead
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colin meloy doesn't need to die
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Postby Kenny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:58 pm

what does it mean to be alive
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:59 pm

mcwop23 wrote:brain dead is dead

I want to agree with you, but according to that article, this girl's brain activity has increased since being declared brain dead. If brain death is not permanent than is it really death?
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:00 pm

Like in the vampire diaries, most of the people who die come back. But life isn't the vampire diaries.
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:01 pm

Kenny wrote:what does it mean to be alive

Alive = a live person or organism
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby Kenny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:02 pm

Dr. Norm Thagard wrote:
Kenny wrote:what does it mean to be alive

Alive = a live person or organism


Then dying means when you start decomposing
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:04 pm

Ok, well the girl is this article has not decomposed and she got her period while brain dead but she has a death certificate
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:04 pm

Like, I think she's "dead," but what does that mean?
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby Kenny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:05 pm

a death certificate is just a piece of paper with some scribbles on it
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Postby Sobieski » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:06 pm

Dr. Norm Thagard wrote:Like in the vampire diaries, most of the people who die come back. But life isn't the vampire diaries.

Isn’t it?
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:07 pm

Yeah, but it has legal implications and stuff

My desk is covered in pieces of paper with scribbles that would not stand up in a court of law
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:07 pm

Sobieski wrote:
Dr. Norm Thagard wrote:Like in the vampire diaries, most of the people who die come back. But life isn't the vampire diaries.

Isn’t it?

The world is a vampire diary
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby Kenny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:08 pm

Dr. Norm Thagard wrote:Yeah, but it has legal implications and stuff

My desk is covered in pieces of paper with scribbles that would not stand up in a court of law


We'll if we're talking legal, someone's dead when they have a legal death certificate
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Postby Sobieski » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:09 pm

Anyways I’m convinced that scientists still don’t know shit about the brain. They’re just poking neurons and dissecting mice brains and making shit up!

They didn’t discover the endo-cannabinoid system until the 1990s, and that seems like an important system to me
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:14 pm

Kenny wrote:
Dr. Norm Thagard wrote:Yeah, but it has legal implications and stuff

My desk is covered in pieces of paper with scribbles that would not stand up in a court of law


We'll if we're talking legal, someone's dead when they have a legal death certificate

But what if they have brain activity!!!!!!! And a heart beat!!!!
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby Mine Is Clouds » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:19 pm

that's a terrible story and it's awful that happened and the girl and her family were treated that way and the experience people of color and people in general have in the american healthcare system is saddening

but brain dead is dead
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Postby Mine Is Clouds » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:24 pm

terry schiavo photoshops was the first hipinion thread i ever saw when it spread across tons of forums
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Postby minerals » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:29 pm

Nailah said, “I didn’t have a clue. I had really thought that I would get her a feeding tube and a tracheotomy, and she would just get up, and we would be good.”

It honestly seems like the issue here is less the question of whether brain dead is dead, and more that the hospital wasn't forthright with the family about what was happening until after they'd already lost all trust
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Postby Kenny » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:31 pm

"The cradle rocks above an abyss, and common sense tells us that our existence is but a brief crack of light between two eternities of darkness. Although the two are identical twins, man, as a rule, views the prenatal abyss with more calm than the one he is headed for (at some forty-five hundred heartbeats an hour)."
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Postby donna martin » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:38 pm

minerals wrote:
Nailah said, “I didn’t have a clue. I had really thought that I would get her a feeding tube and a tracheotomy, and she would just get up, and we would be good.”

It honestly seems like the issue here is less the question of whether brain dead is dead, and more that the hospital wasn't forthright with the family about what was happening until after they'd already lost all trust


I think both can be true. I think the doctors, nurses, hospital staff, and system overall failed this family horrifically and I can see how they wound up where they have. My heart broke for them when I read this.

I also think it's true there's a lot we don't know about the brain and that brain death as a general concept, in many ways, has a lot of unknowns.

That said, this form of being alive is not something I'd want for myself.
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Postby chumpchange » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:50 pm

I always tell people if I was brain dead or living on machines I'd want them to pull the plug, but I know if it was a family member instead of me, even if they'd expressed the exact same wishes I'd have an impossible time doing it because of these kinds of questions. Right now I'm watching my dad lose brain function due to an early onset form of dementia, and I've really started to worry about what it's going to be like when the recognizable "him" is gone, and what my relationship to what's left will be.

Like me, he keeps saying he doesn't care what we do with him when it gets to that point, so I guess I understand now where I get that blase attitude from. But the idea of just dumping my demented dad in a home somewhere and washing my hands of it because it's "not really him" just seems unbearably cruel, regardless of how much of him is or isn't left.

I guess brain death is in theory a little easier, because you can say they've crossed a line there's no coming back from, but I'm pretty sure in practice it wouldn't actually be any less difficult.

Anyway, I voted for hologram
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Postby blogger status » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:54 pm

it means getting to the next level
ROCK LIFE EVERY NIGHT
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Postby minerals » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:57 pm

A lot of the people in the article are going back and forth on what death is and how to define it, but going from the quotes from the McMath family, it seems like they're doing this out of the genuine belief that she might just wake up at any moment and be fine.
If, at the outset, someone they had reason to trust had given them the same definition of "brain death" that most of us are working with (i.e. it's very hard to define, but not a single person in the history of the world has ever been in this situation and gotten better), things might have been different.
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:17 pm

My hangup is if they hadn't denied her a feeding tube for three weeks, would she be less brain dead?

Also, if brain dead is dead, how did she regain some brain activity. And if she did eventually regain some, would it have been more if they hadn't starved her? I mean, I don't think she would have woken up, but I do think it is worth thinking about.
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:18 pm

And, of course a white family would've been treated 100x better. A wealthy or educated white family, 1000x.
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
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