What does it mean to die?

Health insurance rip off lying FDA big bankers buying
Fake computer crashes dining
Cloning while they're multiplying
Fashion shoots with Beck and Hanson
Courtney Love, and Marilyn Manson
You're all fakes
Run to your mansions
Come around
We'll kick your ass in

If you are brain dead, are you dead

Yes
19
41%
No
5
11%
It depends
4
9%
The world is a hologram
4
9%
The world is a vampire
14
30%
 
Total votes : 46

Postby antoine » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:23 pm

Dr. Norm Thagard wrote:Read the article

Done. Very heartbreaking but good article.
User avatar
antoine
 
Posts: 50337
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:32 pm

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:24 pm

So now what do you think dead is?
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby iambic » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:30 pm

minerals wrote:A lot of the people in the article are going back and forth on what death is and how to define it, but going from the quotes from the McMath family, it seems like they're doing this out of the genuine belief that she might just wake up at any moment and be fine.
If, at the outset, someone they had reason to trust had given them the same definition of "brain death" that most of us are working with (i.e. it's very hard to define, but not a single person in the history of the world has ever been in this situation and gotten better), things might have been different.

yeah, this is the heartbreaking thing. Jahi McMath is dead by any definition that describes/embodies human interrelation in this life, and it's deeply sad and debilitating (and maybe even traumatizing) to her family for them to believe otherwise, but it's like no one ever had the kindness/care/capacity to coax them out of this haunted limbo state, and the doctors/nurses thoroughly/wilfully neglected Jahi when she was alive.

I think examining those weird half-light states of death or life is fascinating, but there seems to be no motive for any entity, private or public, to indulge it. because the American medical enterprise is wicked and the world is a vampire.

crushing piece, though. I liked when that one guy said they favored humility over certainty.
Last edited by iambic on Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
iambic
 
Posts: 39728
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:47 am

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:34 pm

It has to be so shocking to gave a child die from a routine surgery and then for her death to not look like death must be even more confusing. Then imagine the distrust of authority and condescending tone of the doctors and it just so sad.

The lady who told her to take the girl off ventilation or she wouldn't look good for her funeral.....
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby antoine » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:35 pm

My thoughts are that they are fighting an unwinnable battle against our garbage healthcare system and the powers that be and it sucks. I don't think she's dead but I also don't think there's really any hope of recovery beyond what she's shown. I dunno, it's an impossibly frustrating situation. I feel like her quality of life is so poor, even though she is alive...I dunno. Basically: ugh.
User avatar
antoine
 
Posts: 50337
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:32 pm

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:36 pm

Have any of y'all read the spirit catches you? If you like this article, read it. I'm sure you can get it for 3.99 at any online used book store
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby iambic » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:41 pm

iambic wrote:dead by any definition that describes/embodies human interrelation in this life

I mean this is my secular humanist occidentalist whatever belief, but I also think anyone who has a different definition could reach a place where they were resigned to ushering or at least allowing their loved one to move on, rather than wrestling with an insane medical and legal apparatus to keep them in a state where there will never be anything like themselves again.
User avatar
iambic
 
Posts: 39728
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:47 am

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:42 pm

iambic wrote:
iambic wrote:dead by any definition that describes/embodies human interrelation in this life

I mean this is my secular humanist occidentalist whatever belief, but I also think anyone who has a different definition could reach a place where they were resigned to ushering or at least allowing their loved one to move on, rather than wrestling with an insane medical and legal apparatus to keep them in a state where there will never be anything like themselves again.

I agree with you and I would not want anyone I live to "live" that life

But when I try to think about it logically my brain goes in circles

:ryan:
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby fester » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:55 pm

Dr. Norm Thagard wrote: life isn't the vampire diaries.


Image
LETS-GO-POOP
User avatar
fester
 
Posts: 18274
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:00 pm
Location: probably somewhere dumb

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:39 pm

I wanna argue with people about life and death situations !!
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:39 pm

I originally typed life and deaf
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby antoine » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:52 pm

Is there a reason they didn't sue the original doc for malpractice or did I miss that part
User avatar
antoine
 
Posts: 50337
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:32 pm

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:04 pm

They are having a hard time because the child is legally dead in California so they can't sue for malpractice, just wrongful death. The article said there is a future trial, no date set, to determine if the child is alive or dead.
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby antoine » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:05 pm

Fuck
User avatar
antoine
 
Posts: 50337
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:32 pm

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:07 pm

Yeah. That's how they got her out of that hospital. It was in the hospital's best interest to let her die bc wrongful death is capped at 250k whereas medical malpractice has no limit
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby donna martin » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:08 pm

Dr. Norm Thagard wrote:They are having a hard time because the child is legally dead in California so they can't sue for malpractice, just wrongful death. The article said there is a future trial, no date set, to determine if the child is alive or dead.


yeah, and if i recall correctly, the article noted any payout for wrongful death is far lower than the potential formulas malpractice, which can include long-term care costs.
User avatar
donna martin
 
Posts: 960
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:28 pm

Postby antoine » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:26 pm

I'm really bad at understanding that stuff and also I find it incredibly troubling so I think my mind purposefully glazes over the minutiae of policy and law so I don't hate everything. Also I'm stupid.
User avatar
antoine
 
Posts: 50337
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:32 pm

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:28 pm

Don't say that

It's my job to teach people to read :)
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby antoine » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:29 pm

Like it's insane they had to do a fucking gofundme to move to New Jersey after they did nothing wrong and the hospital basically killed their daughter? Trouble wrapping my head around all that.
User avatar
antoine
 
Posts: 50337
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:32 pm

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:31 pm

And that they moved there bc it was one of two states where their daughter could legally "live". She's dead at the federal level and alive at the state level. That's some serious insanity
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:33 pm

My (favorite?) Part was when someone called the cops on them in NJ and said they were keeping a corpse
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:35 pm

It also reminded me about the people in Indonesia who keep their dead relatives in their homes

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/magazine-39603771
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby JohnK » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:35 pm

I didn’t read the article yet (sorry!), but just want to say that dealing with families whose loved one has suffered an anoxic brain injury is easily the worst part of my job.
User avatar
JohnK
 
Posts: 9331
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:26 pm
Location: I'd rather be with you.

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:36 pm

Dr. Norm Thagard wrote:It also reminded me about the people in Indonesia who keep their dead relatives in their homes

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/magazine-39603771

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2016/04/death-dying-grief-funeral-ceremony-corpse/
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby antoine » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:40 pm

Dr. Norm Thagard wrote:And that they moved there bc it was one of two states where their daughter could legally "live". She's dead at the federal level and alive at the state level. That's some serious insanity

Directed by Christopher Nolan
User avatar
antoine
 
Posts: 50337
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:32 pm

Postby Dr. Norm Thagard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:41 pm

Yeah I was thinking it's a interesting premise for a story
delgriffith wrote:Yeah Norm.

OKterrific wrote:Norm yay

Cronos wrote:The world needs more Norm

Feech La Manna wrote:well here's Norm at least

night moves wrote: People like you make up false boogeyman to blame for their emotions being out of control
User avatar
Dr. Norm Thagard
Every superhero need her theme music
 
Posts: 25696
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: #shibarbucks

Postby chimp » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:26 pm

it's an interesting piece. i guess what's being described here is some recovery from legal brain death to a minimally conscious state. seems like the family received poor care from the start (post-tonsillectomy bleed is a medical emergency and needs to be seen by an ENT doctor urgently, doesn't sound like this happened but the article isn't totally clear). however i don't think that necessarily implies that the hospital was keen to declare this patient dead when really she wasn't. it sounds like she did fulfil the criteria for brain death at least at one time. question for the lawyers i guess.

there are some confusing statements from various people suggesting that someone who is brain dead is a "corpse" that is about to decay. that's just a fundamental misunderstanding of what brain death is and muddies the picture. someone who is brain dead is not rotting, they have lost brain function. the rest of the body can still function (with support). if that weren't true organs could not be transplanted from these people.
User avatar
chimp
 
Posts: 5611
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:32 pm

Postby chimp » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:34 pm

i guess the truth is that we don't know what would happen to many of the people we define as legally brain dead if we just waited several years with them on artificial ventilation. perhaps some minority of them would recover some function but i think there's a real limit to how much could be regained in the context of anoxic injury where brain tissue is just dead due to lack of oxygen. probably most would die of intercurrent infections, pneumonia etc. goes without saying that the resource cost would be huge but perhaps society would be fine with that
User avatar
chimp
 
Posts: 5611
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:32 pm

Postby dusky » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:49 pm

life is a continuous sequence of dying selves
User avatar
dusky
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:09 pm
Location: up your butt

Postby JohnK » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:53 pm

Our intensivists push for a quick withdrawal when it’s obvious there won’t be any meaningful recovery, but it’s obviously an incredibly hard decision for a family member to make because they don’t want to “kill” their loved one before a miracle (that’s unfortunately never going to happen) happens. Had a lady not too long ago who was 42 with zero history go into v fib arrest and I think it was like 20 minutes until ROSC. EEG showed theta coma and we tried to explain everything to the family but they just couldn’t do it. They elected to have her trach’d and a feeding tube placed in her stomach. So she just lies there with a look of discomfort on her face and has random involuntary movements of her extremities and it’s just the most pitiful thing. And she’ll go to a long term care place where nurse:patient ratios are not 2:1 or even close and she’ll get contractures and pressure ulcers or pneumonia or some other infection and she’ll die anyway. And it’s really sad and you can’t blame them for not wanting to “give up too soon” and asgflgjdjkhld it’s just the worst and I hate it.
User avatar
JohnK
 
Posts: 9331
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:26 pm
Location: I'd rather be with you.

PreviousNext

Return to Don't. Let. Go. You’ve got the music in you.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alice, Ankh, Bartatua, Besuretoloop, boatwave, brent, brentwurst, Buddy Glass, butter, Christmas Ape, Classic Water, cooly, creedence tapes, dan, darger, doublethink0, edgeev, endless dave, evan, Eyeball Kid, fakename, Feech La Manna, Franco, Fullscreen, furrowed brow, gauchebag, Google [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, grace cathedral park, hbb, Infinity Lunker, iwillneverpost, jalapeño ranch, jon, Jouster, kid8, Lake, Legion, light rail coyote, loaf angel, matt, Mechanical bird, Merciel, mickdagger, Mr Squishy, neely o'hara, Paul, Phil, rik pik, sevenarts, Shotfrog, Smiling Penner-Lite, southpaw, theworldof.., walt