Ezra Klein and Sam Harris

Health insurance rip off lying FDA big bankers buying
Fake computer crashes dining
Cloning while they're multiplying
Fashion shoots with Beck and Hanson
Courtney Love, and Marilyn Manson
You're all fakes
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Postby mcwop23 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:17 am

inmate wrote:i think klein has slowly started accepting over the last couple years that republicans/paul ryan act in bad faith, but his instinct is still to do his usual wonky stuff so it comes off like he's still naive.



agree
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Postby Jeremy » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:25 am

rich uncle skeleton wrote:
cooly wrote:i haven't read almost any of klein's political writing but there's a funny mirror between what you're saying about it and this piece, insofar as he allows his opponent to dictate the terms of disagreement and takes them up on 'matters of fact' within that framework. he allows sam harris to have "racial categories are natural and reflect the genetic content of groups of people", "intelligence is a single thing that can be meaningfully compared directly both within and across times, cultures, etc.", "IQ is an objective measure of intelligence", and tries to take him up on whether the 'facts' reflect that.

it's an interesting feature of this exchange insofar as each party is speaking 'on behalf of the science', but i don't think any of those premises are taken as true (or at least as obviously true) by current, mainstream scientists who work on those things.

i should say that this is a bit unfair because klein has to defend the article as its written, and anyways there's a question about how effective challenging those assumptions would be to sam harris's audience; it seems like what he did was extremely effective in making sam harris fans doubt sam (although like jeremy says, sam put in almost all of the work here)


edit: when I wrote 'whether the 'facts' reflect that" i should've written "whether the 'facts' reflect that there is a genetic disparity in IQ between races", with my point being that the premises are going unchallenged.


I mean even if you give Murray all of that (which is incredibly problematic, damaging, and as you've said does not seem to be unanimous scientific consensus) there's still a ton of criticism to be made on his policy proposals.


I think that's simultaneously the problem and strength of Ezra's article, that he grants Murray way, way, way too much stuff, but his point is that even if you accept all the "race science" theses about IQ and it being genetic and race being genetic etc., it still makes no sense to hold that you're talking about a remotely similar environment. He's easier on Murray because he just accepts all his framing in order to just go "Look, even if you take all this seriously, this experiment has clearly never actually been run in America."; Harris gets burnt because his meta-framing of accepting that framing ostentatiously in the name of intellectual integrity is self-evidently stupid in light of the fact that even on Murray's framing the experiment has not been run.
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Postby Jeremy » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:25 am

Fuck I'm probably too drunk to go to the post office by now.
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Postby Jeremy » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:27 am

mcwop23 wrote:
inmate wrote:i think klein has slowly started accepting over the last couple years that republicans/paul ryan act in bad faith, but his instinct is still to do his usual wonky stuff so it comes off like he's still naive.


agree


You know how at a certain point you have a reflexive style that may not reflect how you feel about your content.
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Postby largecrow » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:57 pm

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Postby object » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:57 pm

Yes. Like in the interview with Hillary, at times he was politely and subtly suggesting she was too much of a wonky centrist who failed to see the big picture. I think he might have already recognised that in himself too.
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Postby jewels » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:05 pm

it's the age old question, does Ezra Pound.
gold and glass wrote:When you get to heaven, do you get to see a list of which gimmicks belonged to who?
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Postby Jeremy » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:15 pm

object wrote:Yes. Like in the interview with Hillary, at times he was politely and subtly suggesting she was too much of a wonky centrist who failed to see the big picture. I think he might have already recognised that in himself too.


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Postby mcwop23 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:07 pm

Jeremy wrote:
mcwop23 wrote:
inmate wrote:i think klein has slowly started accepting over the last couple years that republicans/paul ryan act in bad faith, but his instinct is still to do his usual wonky stuff so it comes off like he's still naive.


agree


You know how at a certain point you have a reflexive style that may not reflect how you feel about your content.


as a person who is trying to be better in general yeah
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Postby Feech La Manna » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:20 pm

BAH GAWD, THAT'S ANDREW SULLIVAN'S MUSIC

badhat wrote:bike solve all problems
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Postby Bad craziness » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:14 pm

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Postby object » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:16 pm

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Postby Feech La Manna » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:19 pm

lmao
badhat wrote:bike solve all problems
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Postby black mamba » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:13 pm

do they have sportsbetting for podcast arguments?
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Postby Feech La Manna » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:14 pm

I want to bet the under for ad homs
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Postby Feech La Manna » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:38 pm

holy shit

badhat wrote:bike solve all problems
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Postby brittle » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:48 pm

Oh fuck!
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Postby brittle » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:51 pm

"The Lightstaves said my brother was killed in battle, but I know in my bones Oraven is still out there. Can you kill twenty boars to help me find him?"
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Postby Bad craziness » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:30 am










































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Postby Bad craziness » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:43 am

It’s like yeah, don’t worry, we already knew those were your favorite movies
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Postby Destroyevsky » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:29 am

Bartatua wrote:
Feech La Manna wrote:Image


i think about this particular quote all the time


Damn Chomsky’s kink-shaming Sam Harris lol
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Postby rich uncle skeleton » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:44 pm

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Postby object » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:45 pm

not doing it
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Postby rich uncle skeleton » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:51 pm

Got to a part where he says that you can debate both sides of affirmative action without having a racist bone in your body, think it's about time to seinfeld.gif on this one
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Postby object » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:04 pm

Anyone listen to it?
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Postby bachwards » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:28 pm

I had considered listening to it, but reading the transcript was more than enough :?
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Postby object » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:14 pm

Does epigenetics come up in any of these conversations?
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Postby Feech La Manna » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:15 pm

I've seen a few excerpts from that thing on Twitter and basically every Sam Harris quote is some variation of "Actually, that's not true."
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Postby Feech La Manna » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:23 pm

lol

Ezra wrote: I know Charles Murray. When I wrote my very first piece as a journalist in Washington, it was a piece about poverty, I interviewed him for it. I’ve reviewed his books. I’ve talked with him. My wife is writing a book about UBI actually. He’s quoted in the book. I do not want Charles Murray silenced, and he’s a lovely guy interpersonally. There’s no doubt about that.


Ezra wrote:I’ll end by noting what you said about Andrew Sullivan. Andrew is a friend of mine. I do not think he’s a racist, and I take his honesty seriously, and I appreciate the conversations he wants to have.
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Postby draw » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:03 pm

Someone mistakenly inferred that I was a fellow Sam Harris fan because I used the phrase "intellectually dishonest." Guess that's another phrase I'll have excise from my vocabulary.
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