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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:23 pm

misadventurous wrote:
freezinseason wrote:i'm trying to get people to actually engage with killer mike's politics instead of saying liberal horseshit about how he's dumb or "kill your idols"


You're doing a shitty and counterproductive job of it


what is "counterproductive" here? what productive activity have i countered?
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Postby john plainman » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:24 pm

jalapeño ranch wrote:
freezinseason wrote:
jalapeño ranch wrote:But... they were...


the "good faith" of calling killer mike an idiot? the good faith of assuming the book says black people should get into direct confrontations with cops? :roll:

I see the problem here. It appears you think every account here is saran claps.

There were earnest posts responding to you, you just ignored them.


gross :?
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Postby misadventurous » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:29 pm

freezinseason wrote:
misadventurous wrote:
freezinseason wrote:i'm trying to get people to actually engage with killer mike's politics instead of saying liberal horseshit about how he's dumb or "kill your idols"


You're doing a shitty and counterproductive job of it


what is "counterproductive" here? what productive activity have i countered?


Your own, apparently
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Postby misadventurous » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:30 pm

Man it sucks that i got into a stupid argument in my first 20 posts. Sorry, forums.hipinion.com this is like an all-time low for me
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:32 pm

misadventurous wrote:
freezinseason wrote:
misadventurous wrote:
freezinseason wrote:i'm trying to get people to actually engage with killer mike's politics instead of saying liberal horseshit about how he's dumb or "kill your idols"


You're doing a shitty and counterproductive job of it


what is "counterproductive" here? what productive activity have i countered?


Your own, apparently


i think i've been fairly productive. about as productive as one can reasonably expect on this forum.
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Postby misadventurous » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:33 pm

Anyway i'm saying that if you were intending to get people to engage Killer Mike's politics, or yours, or anything at all, you did a shitty job of it

If you were trying to be a frankly, pretty reprehensible troll, you fuckin nailed it
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:36 pm

misadventurous wrote:Anyway i'm saying that if you were intending to get people to engage Killer Mike's politics, or yours, or anything at all, you did a shitty job of it


on this forum there are a number of anti-intellectual trolls, i got them to get out of this thread so i think i've been fairly successful. about as much as one can hope for on hipinion. if people want to start having a goodfaith discussion about the contents of the book in question then now might be a good time :D there's a lot of trolls on this forum so who knows how long i can hold them off...
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Postby son of chucky » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:40 pm

freezinseason uses :D the same way dalen did. frankly i think this smiley should be retired
I am going to buy more books about elderly dogs in the future. Thank you.
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Postby misadventurous » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:41 pm

buster i am probably the #1 person you could have had an interesting conversation about hard left politics with on this forum and you done fucked it up royally by being a complete choad. But by all means paint the bullseye around the dart if it helps you sleep

edit; this feels a little too self-aggrandizing but the point stands. You're a dick and idk why anyone would want to earnestly talk to a dick.

edit2: Christ this post sucks. sorry
Last edited by misadventurous on Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:42 pm

son of chucky wrote:freezinseason uses :D the same way dalen did. frankly i think this smiley should be retired


ill just use this fellow instead :mrgreen:
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:43 pm

misadventurous wrote:buster i am probably the #1 person you could have had an interesting conversation about hard left politics with on this forum and you done fucked it up royally by being a complete choad. But by all means paint the bullseye around the dart if it helps you sleep


you can still do it if you wanna say something about the robert williams' book that you found of interest
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Postby WeirdJungle » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:44 pm

Hey guys I would love to read a book that convinced killer mike to buy guns

What’s it called?
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:48 pm

WeirdJungle wrote:Hey guys I would love to read a book that convinced killer mike to buy guns

What’s it called?


i dunno if it convinced him to buy guns, but in a (now deleted?) instagram post he referenced robert f williams

here's the pdf:

https://libcom.org/files/Robert%20Frank ... 20guns.pdf
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Postby misadventurous » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:50 pm

freezinseason wrote:you can still do it if you wanna say something about the robert williams' book that you found of interest


Nah, fuck off
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:51 pm

misadventurous wrote:
freezinseason wrote:you can still do it if you wanna say something about the robert williams' book that you found of interest


Nah, fuck off


hm, looks like you weren't interested in being productive after all.
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Postby farmer » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:52 pm

jesus christ can we please do a roy thing already where he's forced to stay in one thread.
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:53 pm

farmer wrote:jesus christ can we please do a roy thing already where he's forced to stay in one thread.


aren't you that guy that just spams emoticons until a mod had to delete them?
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Postby WeirdJungle » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:55 pm

Cool I look forward to reading it when I get home

Tbh I think a lot of white folk are unaware of the history of black militants and the early gun rights movement because more recently in the US it has been so strongly associated with conservative politics

E.g. the first gun control laws in California were a direct reaction to the existence of black panther party
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Postby misadventurous » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:58 pm

Just ignore him. The moment he responded to "counterproductive" by being utterly literal i realized i was basically fighting a twitter rando and that's not something worth time or consideration

Again, sorry. This is pretty embarrassing. I just get really frustrated when someone tries to wield things i care about as a cudgel
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:58 pm

WeirdJungle wrote:Cool I look forward to reading it when I get home

Tbh I think a lot of white folk are unaware of the history of black militants and the early gun rights movement because more recently in the US it has been so strongly associated with conservative politics

E.g. the first gun control laws in California were a direct reaction to the existence of black panther party


yea thats why the "justify why i should read some OLD book" stuff kinda annoys me. if i was recommending an old book about barry goldwater or something nobody would be asking me to justify why its still relevent. williams helped inspire the black panthers so if you like reading about them youll enjoy williams stuff.
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:00 pm

misadventurous wrote:Just ignore him. The moment he responded to "counterproductive" by being utterly literal i realized i was basically fighting a twitter rando and that's not something worth time or consideration


i'm sorry that i took your post in good faith and responded to the literal meaning of words that you used.
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Postby Smerdyakov » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:03 pm

Folks, I read the book.

It's an account of various civil rights issues in Monroe, NC in the late 50s. It's actually a pretty good read. Williams uses everyday language, and it's not bogged down in any "intellectual" theory that some of you seem to be suggesting. Basically, what I got out of it is that there are limits to the effectiveness of nonviolent tactics for oppressed people. How this relates to the Killer Mike interview, I don't know cause I didn't watch it. See ya.
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Postby def from above » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:21 pm

freezinseason wrote:
def from above wrote:
freezinseason wrote:what does any historical work say about the present? the frustrating thing for radicals is that we constantly have to justify our uses of political thought that is only 56 years old.


no one's asking you to justify your allegiance to this thought.

speaking as a marxist, I'm seriously interested in how it might apply here!
dude come on. now's your chance to win people over. instead of seeing that as a burden, why not embrace it as an opportunity?


i did embrace the opportunity, which is why i linked you all to material on the issue. as a marxist, you should be aware of marx's own opinions on guns and organisation btw.


I'm sorry but telling someone "read!" over and over is not 'embracing an opportunity' to dialogue and enlighten. a true intellectual doesnt hide behind bibliographies but jumps at the chance to engage others and discuss how ideas relate to the real world.

and as a marxist i know that his thoughts on violent revolution were far more nuanced than you realize. that excerpt you posted is from 1850, fresh from the upheavals of 1848
yet after more than 20 years of additional research under his belt, he noted that:

"But we have not asserted that the ways to achieve that goal [of revolution] are everywhere the same.
You know that the institutions, mores, and traditions of various countries must be taken into consideration, and we do not deny that there are countries -- such as America, England, and if I were more familiar with your institutions, I would perhaps also add Holland -- where the workers can attain their goal by peaceful means." Speech to The International Working Men's Association, 1872
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/09/08.htm

but let's saw marx was nothing but a rabid gun nut. you still have done nothing but foreclose discussion. youve made it a protected enclave into which admission must be bought through private study. if other radicals/anarchists are like you, then the movement is doomed forever.
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Postby def from above » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:23 pm

Smerdyakov wrote:Folks, I read the book.

It's an account of various civil rights issues in Monroe, NC in the late 50s. It's actually a pretty good read. Williams uses everyday language, and it's not bogged down in any "intellectual" theory that some of you seem to be suggesting. Basically, what I got out of it is that there are limits to the effectiveness of nonviolent tactics for oppressed people. How this relates to the Killer Mike interview, I don't know cause I didn't watch it. See ya.


freezeinseason watched the interview. and he refuses to tell us how the book relates to mike's comments on defending against racist cops.

freezeinseason: smerdyakov read the book! so, according to your own rules, you can tell him how it applies to police brutality today and then he can tell us! problem solved!
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:28 pm

def from above wrote:
freezinseason wrote:
def from above wrote:
freezinseason wrote:what does any historical work say about the present? the frustrating thing for radicals is that we constantly have to justify our uses of political thought that is only 56 years old.


no one's asking you to justify your allegiance to this thought.

speaking as a marxist, I'm seriously interested in how it might apply here!
dude come on. now's your chance to win people over. instead of seeing that as a burden, why not embrace it as an opportunity?


i did embrace the opportunity, which is why i linked you all to material on the issue. as a marxist, you should be aware of marx's own opinions on guns and organisation btw.


I'm sorry but telling someone "read!" over and over is not 'embracing an opportunity' to dialogue and enlighten. a true intellectual doesnt hide behind bibliographies but jumps at the chance to engage others and discuss how ideas relate to the real world.

and as a marxist i know that his thoughts on violent revolution were far more nuanced than you realize. that excerpt you posted is from 1850, fresh from the upheavals of 1848
yet after more than 20 years of additional research under his belt, he noted that:

"But we have not asserted that the ways to achieve that goal [of revolution] are everywhere the same.
You know that the institutions, mores, and traditions of various countries must be taken into consideration, and we do not deny that there are countries -- such as America, England, and if I were more familiar with your institutions, I would perhaps also add Holland -- where the workers can attain their goal by peaceful means." Speech to The International Working Men's Association, 1872
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/09/08.htm

but let's saw marx was nothing but a rabid gun nut. you still have done nothing but foreclose discussion. youve made it a protected enclave into which admission must be bought through private study. if other radicals/anarchists are like you, then the movement is doomed forever.


the very next sentence states "This being the case, we must also recognize the fact that in most countries on the Continent the lever of our revolution must be force; it is force to which we must some day appeal in order to erect the rule of labor."
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:30 pm

nobody was arguing that marx was a "gun nut", whatever a gun nut is.
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Postby def from above » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:34 pm

freezinseason wrote:the very next sentence states "This being the case, we must also recognize the fact that in most countries on the Continent the lever of our revolution must be force; it is force to which we must some day appeal in order to erect the rule of labor."


Yes but my question - and mike’s comments - happen to be about America, not Europe.
Regardless, Marx’s words should disabuse us of any idea that violence is always and everywhere necessary to successful revolution.
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:37 pm

def from above wrote:
freezinseason wrote:the very next sentence states "This being the case, we must also recognize the fact that in most countries on the Continent the lever of our revolution must be force; it is force to which we must some day appeal in order to erect the rule of labor."


Yes but my question - and mike’s comments - happen to be about America, not Europe.
Regardless, Marx’s words should disabuse us of any idea that violence is always and everywhere necessary to successful revolution.


im not sure why you are clinging tightly to an offhand remark marx made about america in 1872 but are dismissive of a long piece which a radical american wrote about america in 1962.
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Postby def from above » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:43 pm

freezinseason wrote:
def from above wrote:
freezinseason wrote:the very next sentence states "This being the case, we must also recognize the fact that in most countries on the Continent the lever of our revolution must be force; it is force to which we must some day appeal in order to erect the rule of labor."


Yes but my question - and mike’s comments - happen to be about America, not Europe.
Regardless, Marx’s words should disabuse us of any idea that violence is always and everywhere necessary to successful revolution.


im not sure why you are clinging tightly to an offhand remark marx made about america in 1872 but are dismissive of a long piece which a radical american wrote about america in 1962.


You said that, as a Marxist, I should be aware of his support of violent revolution. So I responded

And we’re not dismissing Williams. We just want to know if you can apply him to what mike was saying about racist cops today.
But you’ve made it patently clear that you cannot

So I’m gonna quietly leave you to your library and find people who would actually like to exchange ideas.
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Postby freezinseason » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:48 pm

def from above wrote:You said that, as a Marxist, I should be aware of his support of violent revolution. So I responded


you responded that he made one short offhand comment about the possibility of it in 1872. not exactly convincing in the face of everything that's happened in the last 146 years.

And we’re not dismissing Williams. We just want to know if you can apply him to what mike was saying about racist cops today.
But you’ve made it patently clear that you cannot

So I’m gonna quietly leave you to your library and find people who would actually like to exchange ideas.


we can apply it, first you should probably read what williams said. i read your marx piece that you linked to, so its only fair.
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