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Postby broodstar » Tue May 15, 2018 5:07 pm

for grid-based 2d tactics (like fft and ogre battle, not like xcom and darkest dungeon) fft original is good, but like most games, a lot of it is probably colored by nostalgia and/or exceeding popularity. it's not a bad place to look though.

i always pimp out fire emblem, which runs the gamut from early straight up, no-nonsense, punishing tactics, to later entries being more waifu simulators. at its core, it's basic tactics, but gives every character a name and personality to make them feel unique, but the fundamental gameplay's there.

devil survivor is the kookiest; a smorgasbord of tactics and megaten mechanics. weird demon fusing that comprises your party, and other weird mechanics. i wish more people played it, but it's also got some pretty classic megaten/weeaboo tropes so i guess i'm not faulting anyone for not

shining force is probably the pinnacle (and the first?). look into it. everyone always references the laser battle as a unique boss that pushed new ground into a fairly static genre.

julian gallop designed his own 2d tactics game for the gba called rebelstar: tactical command. never played it, and don't think it was received too well, but you might be interested in it

i dunno, i really like the genre and there's probably not much you can do to it to make it go wrong
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Postby internetfriend » Tue May 15, 2018 5:10 pm

nice thank you very much
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Postby gradient » Tue May 15, 2018 5:14 pm

chairkicker wrote:
gradient wrote:
i wish id was making this

but they are! co-developing with avalanche
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Postby milknight » Tue May 15, 2018 5:15 pm

broodstar im a budding megaten nerd is devil survivor overclocked good
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Postby broodstar » Tue May 15, 2018 5:19 pm

the shining force laser battle: https://kotaku.com/shining-force-s-bril ... 1825563927

fire emblem's a pretty household name at this point, but one of its weird quirks is that because its community is so large (and driven), you get extreme min/max strats like optimal ltc runs. if you've played lunatic modes, even playing normally (i.e. keeping everyone alive and just killing everything on the map, or essentially playing how you're 'supposed to play') is often brutal, so some of the tricks they use is rather ingenious



i think it helps demonstrate that even though most of these games are imbalanced in one way or another, they're all still good, and its their unique toolsets that create the strategy
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Postby broodstar » Tue May 15, 2018 5:22 pm

milknight wrote:broodstar im a budding megaten nerd is devil survivor overclocked good

the amount i talk about it, i should prolly just say its one of my favorites

tactics being my favorite genre, and megaten just providing such a new fresh formula really got me. if someone slapped trails writing + megaten mechanics i'd be full-blown weeb. i think there are different routes depending on your dialogue choices and what order you tackle events in (the time system is really important!), and you're constantly fusing new unique demons as party members
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Postby gradient » Tue May 15, 2018 5:30 pm

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Postby a-10 warthog champion » Tue May 15, 2018 5:32 pm

milknight wrote:broodstar im a budding megaten nerd is devil survivor overclocked good



devil survivor is the one i was trying to remember the name of after d&d the other day

it's excellent, i think you'd like it. there's also a sequel, i cant remember if the second one was a late era ds game or a 3ds one

there are different routes depending on what you do during the day, i believe. it all takes place w/i a week. cool story from what i remember, and a really bright, vibrant aesthetic like the persona games.
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Postby internetfriend » Tue May 15, 2018 5:34 pm

devil survivor looks cool i wish there was a real pc version....like one actually made to be seen on a big monitor
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Postby a-10 warthog champion » Tue May 15, 2018 5:36 pm

internetfriend wrote:devil survivor looks cool i wish there was a real pc version....like one actually made to be seen on a big monitor



it'd be cool if they made one for consoles, but i feel like it's definitely a game made for handhelds and best played on them. it's pieced together to be able to be played in small bites, although some of the fights can be pretty difficult and long.
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Postby a-10 warthog champion » Tue May 15, 2018 5:38 pm

you should play disgaea as an example of how to let the player figure out how to balance their own game

i re-installed 4 after dicking around w/ 2 a bit on pc and man trying to keep track of all the systems and different ways to approach beating the story (which is like barely part of the game) is insane
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Postby a-10 warthog champion » Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 pm

broodstar wrote:
milknight wrote:broodstar im a budding megaten nerd is devil survivor overclocked good

the amount i talk about it, i should prolly just say its one of my favorites

tactics being my favorite genre, and megaten just providing such a new fresh formula really got me. if someone slapped trails writing + megaten mechanics i'd be full-blown weeb. i think there are different routes depending on your dialogue choices and what order you tackle events in (the time system is really important!), and you're constantly fusing new unique demons as party members



yeah it's kind of like pokemon tactics or something where you have like a bunch of different mcs with a set of pokemon or something

it's kind of a crazy game looking back on it.
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Postby iambic » Tue May 15, 2018 5:55 pm

internetfriend wrote:what’re some good games in the world of....ogre battle 64, xcom, darkest dungeon, invisible inc. i know they’re different but still! is fft actually the highest-regarded or just the one that people have the most warmth and nostalgia towards

uh.., battletech
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Postby iambic » Tue May 15, 2018 5:58 pm

but also jagged alliance 2, xenonauts, fallout: tactics, the banner saga, hard west, temple of elemental evil, and frozen synapse/endzone if you consider those "turn-based"
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Postby a-10 warthog champion » Tue May 15, 2018 6:02 pm

jagged alliance 2 is every bit as turn based as battletech. i think part of the reason i like the latter so much is that spiritually the gameplay is very, very close to ja, minus the pre-defined map, up to the little quips from each character.
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Postby internetfriend » Tue May 15, 2018 6:03 pm

i could only play about 20 minutes of banner saga and frozen synapse before turning them off, but i’ll check some of those others out

i’m thinking specifically of darkest dungeon and ogre battle 64 because of how much of their gameplay is based on a dense ecosystem of classes/jobs, outfitting, loadouts, decisions about how to structure ‘squads’ or units or whatever. and i’m sure a lot of these games have that but things like banner saga and frozen synapse didn’t tickle that for me at all
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Postby broodstar » Tue May 15, 2018 6:03 pm

and this one's for spoons: recent wesnoth-likes (slap generic high fantasy onto hex grids)

battle for wesnoth
low magic age
warbanners
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Postby iambic » Tue May 15, 2018 6:04 pm

internetfriend wrote:a dense ecosystem of classes/jobs, outfitting, loadouts, decisions about how to structure ‘squads’ or units or whatever.

xcom long war
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Postby internetfriend » Tue May 15, 2018 6:05 pm

like i’m really attracted to the idea of making a game with a multi-tiered jobs tree, with some jobs gated by alignment or items or mutual exclusion. ./‘ like ogre battle ./‘
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Postby internetfriend » Tue May 15, 2018 6:07 pm

iambic wrote:
internetfriend wrote:a dense ecosystem of classes/jobs, outfitting, loadouts, decisions about how to structure ‘squads’ or units or whatever.

xcom long war

didn’t like the role rng played in the combat layer at all to the point that i stopped having fun, and the battles weren’t really structured the right way, but xcom definitely did some stuff that touches on what i’m thinking about
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Postby internetfriend » Tue May 15, 2018 6:14 pm

i guess, to be more specific, i’m not thinking of games like xcom or battletech where the mission layer and the combat layer are the same layer, where you load into one big grid with your team and spend turns moving around it and mingling with the enemy and having enemy reinforcements shockingly appear when you’ve detonated the submarine or whatever. i’m curious about games like ob64, dd, ftl where the mission layer and the combat layer are separate—where squad(s) navigate around a zoomed-out navigation zone, and in the course of that navigation get thrown into a much more constrained combat layer in which one squad fights another in a context that doesn’t really involve the traversal of space
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Postby iambic » Tue May 15, 2018 6:16 pm

internetfriend wrote:
iambic wrote:
internetfriend wrote:a dense ecosystem of classes/jobs, outfitting, loadouts, decisions about how to structure ‘squads’ or units or whatever.

xcom long war

didn’t like the role rng played in the combat layer at all to the point that i stopped having fun, and the battles weren’t really structured the right way, but xcom definitely did some stuff that touches on what i’m thinking about

ok but are you talking about xcom or xcom long war? rng is much more mitigated in the latter (and the job system/squad decisions are much more complex), although it's still ... essential to why the game is fun (and often why the genre is fun, except for clockwork things like invisible or itb)
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Postby a-10 warthog champion » Tue May 15, 2018 6:16 pm

internetfriend wrote:
iambic wrote:
internetfriend wrote:a dense ecosystem of classes/jobs, outfitting, loadouts, decisions about how to structure ‘squads’ or units or whatever.

xcom long war

didn’t like the role rng played in the combat layer at all to the point that i stopped having fun, and the battles weren’t really structured the right way, but xcom definitely did some stuff that touches on what i’m thinking about



you might want to look into grand kingdom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Kingdom

it's a lane-based rather than grid based turn-based game but i think the class interplay/squad structure is maybe along the lines of what you're looking for. you plan out your squads/jobs/positioning before battle, and there's a multiplayer aspect where you structure them and then send them out into the world and see how they do against other groups. there are also objects integrated into the planning. Class effectiveness somewhat depends on "reincarnating" characters like disgaea w/ better base stats.


otherwise battletech honestly is probably the closest for what you're asking for, although i suspect it's not as tight as you'd want
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Postby iambic » Tue May 15, 2018 6:19 pm

internetfriend wrote:doesn’t really involve the traversal of space

oh yeah this is way less interesting to me immediately
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Postby surly » Tue May 15, 2018 6:23 pm

lordofdiapers wrote:damn it Greedo will forever fuck that word for me
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Postby internetfriend » Tue May 15, 2018 6:40 pm

i havent played xcom long war. maybe it's very different!

to be clear, i have liked some games like that, but i've rarely really clicked with them. i usually go into them with a lot of enthusiasm and then hit a wall and feel very bored doing any part of them. i think it's a difficulty curve problem, usually. i feel like...a lot of them involve trickling new scenarios to you throughout the game by putting you up against enemies with new abilities or different behaviors. and if the particular demands that those enemies make on the player's toolset is too clearly extrapolated from the toolset that they've built to that point, the missions don't really push the players to develop new strategies, and they feel samey and boring.

but if the new challenge doesn't reward the player for directly extrapolating from their previous experience (meaning, specifically, that they punish the player for attempting their pet strategy in a context that is intended to provoke them into something new), you have a very narrow window to teach them that their old experience isn't going to work. if the player misses that window (which i'm inclined to think is basically always going to be the game's fault), the consequences for that failure are usually pretty draconian. you don't just lose the mission, you lose your best two soldiers, and go into debt at the overworld layer, and are now fully on the back foot in a pretty serious way on every conceivable layer of the game, and you've been tasked with pulling yourself out of a hole that you wound up in because, e.g., you understood that you weren't supposed to try flanking a Spine-Toothed Gribblemonger thanks to the game's consistent visual language...but you didn't understand what you were supposed to do, either. you had maybe, graciously, two turns to guess correctly, and you didn't guess correctly either turn, and that meant you go in the hole. or maybe you didn't bring the tech for it, because you didn't expect to run into it. or maybe you did have the tech for it but your tech was incapped because of some bad rng a little earlier, which you'd normally know how to recuperate from but can't because you're now trapped in a cascading failure.

and that's the point in playing the game where i'm forced to really take stock of whether i was having enough fun before things went south to try to get myself back to the point where everything's copacetic. and maybe the answer is "yes, i was!" in some games, but i still think it's a good game design rule to never force players to ask themselves if they've been having enough fun up to that point to make it worth continuing, because even having to ask the question is probably going to sour the player's view of the game. reminds me of this tweet:



this is something that i think ftl and invisible inc handle pretty well, in different ways. it's something that Ogre Battle 64 handles very well in a cool way—because of how combat is structured, it's nearly impossible to only have that two-turn gap between being presented with an obstacle and being expected to (A) identify the solution and (B) be able to deploy the solution. you are necessarily going to get multiple windows to try to fit your way through the gap, and between each one you get to further define the context in which you present your solution.

it's something that xcom and dd handle...less good. xcom felt like it just never really hit the pleasure zone between "use your same ol' strategy" and "be prepared to fight an enemy you've never fought before which will do something totally new to you", and getting set back in that game really sucked. dd had a hilariously egregious example of missing the two-turn gap and being outrageously punished for it. some people even defend dd's Big Sin, which is a good sign of something, to someone, probably
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Postby internetfriend » Tue May 15, 2018 6:46 pm

to be clear im not arguing that xcom is a bad game at all, but i went from "at last, a game for me!" to "i dont think ill boot this up again" in 10 hours, and i think this is why
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Postby Marcus » Tue May 15, 2018 7:03 pm

Staaaalker
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Postby Marcus » Tue May 15, 2018 7:03 pm

Plainman to thread pls
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Postby trouble » Tue May 15, 2018 7:08 pm

remember the part in Ogre Battle 64 where the stone block falls from the sky and the spearman carve out the N64 logo
i'm on one
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