ISRAEL/PALESTINE: THE THREAD

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Postby identikit » Thu May 17, 2018 12:11 pm

I don't know about any American nonprofits that are neither Jewish nor antisemitic, would be curious about it.

I'm in with these guys, or rather was while in the US, had nothing but great experiences with everyone I met there.

https://ifnotnowmovement.org/
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Postby mortimer » Thu May 17, 2018 12:12 pm

hotdogs wrote:yo i dont know anything about nonprofits or fundraising and shit. im also VERY ignorant of many facets of this incredibly complex situation. can i have a bake sale and donate all the profits to the PCRF? can i pass out BDS pamphlets at the farmers market? what areas/authors of discourse can i trust that wont have me parroting antisemitic rhetoric? i live in the south so i will most assuredly have a (white, baptist) solider of god beat my ass for doing any of these things. or will attract neonazis. how can i win over the former and avoid being associated with the latter? sorry for barging in and making an extremely white guy post. im just disgusted and want to help in whatever small way i can. tone sincere

well, you're going to be considered an antisemite by a certain group of people regardless, but I think a little common sense will help you figure out the difference between criticism of Israel and unfair criticism of Jewish people.
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Postby Feech La Manna » Thu May 17, 2018 12:15 pm

john plainman wrote:this thread would make more sense if we also had a 100 page thread on saudi arabia's treatment of yemen, i suppose.


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Postby Daft Pun » Thu May 17, 2018 12:21 pm

john plainman wrote:this thread would make more sense if we also had a 100 page thread on saudi arabia's treatment of yemen, i suppose.


you know you can create threads right? see how it goes, i'll post innit
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Postby laserblast » Thu May 17, 2018 12:26 pm

hotdogs wrote:yo i dont know anything about nonprofits or fundraising and shit. im also VERY ignorant of many facets of this incredibly complex situation. can i have a bake sale and donate all the profits to the PCRF? can i pass out BDS pamphlets at the farmers market? what areas/authors of discourse can i trust that wont have me parroting antisemitic rhetoric? i live in the south so i will most assuredly have a (white, baptist) solider of god beat my ass for doing any of these things. or will attract neonazis. how can i win over the former and avoid being associated with the latter? sorry for barging in and making an extremely white guy post. im just disgusted and want to help in whatever small way i can. tone sincere


i cannot vouch for every word of this but the DSA has a jewish caucus. they wrote some shit. some of it is very critical of anti-semitism on the left! so maybe start here. then read some more.

https://medium.com/jewish-socialism/dsa-jewish-solidarity-caucus-a26f94f9212a
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Postby john plainman » Thu May 17, 2018 12:30 pm

I leave the thread creation to the experts
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Postby hotdogs » Thu May 17, 2018 12:32 pm

thank you for the responses!
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Postby Autarch » Thu May 17, 2018 3:10 pm

laserblast wrote:
hotdogs wrote:yo i dont know anything about nonprofits or fundraising and shit. im also VERY ignorant of many facets of this incredibly complex situation. can i have a bake sale and donate all the profits to the PCRF? can i pass out BDS pamphlets at the farmers market? what areas/authors of discourse can i trust that wont have me parroting antisemitic rhetoric? i live in the south so i will most assuredly have a (white, baptist) solider of god beat my ass for doing any of these things. or will attract neonazis. how can i win over the former and avoid being associated with the latter? sorry for barging in and making an extremely white guy post. im just disgusted and want to help in whatever small way i can. tone sincere


i cannot vouch for every word of this but the DSA has a jewish caucus. they wrote some shit. some of it is very critical of anti-semitism on the left! so maybe start here. then read some more.

https://medium.com/jewish-socialism/dsa-jewish-solidarity-caucus-a26f94f9212a


this looks cool.

also, definitely agree with mortimer, re: using the word kike. I don't want to end up in a world where I have to explain to stupid gentile-americans that just because they heard a jew using the word, that doesn't make it ok for them to use.
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Postby john plainman » Thu May 17, 2018 5:58 pm

Autarch wrote:
laserblast wrote:
hotdogs wrote:yo i dont know anything about nonprofits or fundraising and shit. im also VERY ignorant of many facets of this incredibly complex situation. can i have a bake sale and donate all the profits to the PCRF? can i pass out BDS pamphlets at the farmers market? what areas/authors of discourse can i trust that wont have me parroting antisemitic rhetoric? i live in the south so i will most assuredly have a (white, baptist) solider of god beat my ass for doing any of these things. or will attract neonazis. how can i win over the former and avoid being associated with the latter? sorry for barging in and making an extremely white guy post. im just disgusted and want to help in whatever small way i can. tone sincere


i cannot vouch for every word of this but the DSA has a jewish caucus. they wrote some shit. some of it is very critical of anti-semitism on the left! so maybe start here. then read some more.

https://medium.com/jewish-socialism/dsa-jewish-solidarity-caucus-a26f94f9212a


this looks cool.

also, definitely agree with mortimer, re: using the word kike. I don't want to end up in a world where I have to explain to stupid gentile-americans that just because they heard a jew using the word, that doesn't make it ok for them to use.


we're... in that... world?
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Postby clwon » Thu May 17, 2018 6:06 pm

jews shouldn't use that word either

also that DSA statement was written undemocratically and there are points I would have made if they'd shared it later than 8am PST
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Postby clwon » Thu May 17, 2018 6:08 pm

identikit wrote:I don't know about any American nonprofits that are neither Jewish nor antisemitic, would be curious about it.

I'm in with these guys, or rather was while in the US, had nothing but great experiences with everyone I met there.

https://ifnotnowmovement.org/


this group refuses to call itself anti-Zionist or endorse the BDS movement and do not explain themselves when asked about either

IMO these are better orgs to support:

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

https://bdsmovement.net/

https://map.org.uk/
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Postby Autarch » Thu May 17, 2018 6:12 pm

clwon wrote:jews shouldn't use that word either

also that DSA statement was written undemocratically and there are points I would have made if they'd shared it later than 8am PST


Yeah, that's why I was saying I agreed w Mortimer. What points would you have made if they shared it later.?
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Postby Autarch » Thu May 17, 2018 6:13 pm

Double
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Postby freezinseason » Thu May 17, 2018 6:45 pm

john plainman wrote:this thread would make more sense if we also had a 100 page thread on saudi arabia's treatment of yemen, i suppose.


lol we can't even have a thread on north korea without people chiming in to support america. why would a yemen thread be any better.
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Postby clouds » Thu May 17, 2018 6:54 pm

back to remembering the good times: remember when the idf took like 10 casualties in a war and like 4 of them were friendly fire so they just stacked enough civilian bodies to fill a small theatre venue and dozed thousands of homes leaving tens of thousands homeless. also yemen.
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Postby clouds » Thu May 17, 2018 6:55 pm

perfect. a fresh start. all the ugliness is behind us.
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Postby Spotlight Kid » Thu May 17, 2018 7:05 pm

identikit wrote:
mortimer wrote:
identikit wrote:you are American, I suppose? yea I realize you guys don't do a lot of things. amazing, the differences,between German Austrian Jews in particular and Americans, aren't they.

yea see obvioulsy I struggle with a good direction on Israel Still Dicks. If you could guide me, that would be nice.

are american jews not real jews now? not sure i follow.

most american jews are first or second generation americans. is that ok with you?

nono, that is not what I meant at all. But our experience is vastly different. Americans, jews and otherwise, use language a tiny bit different. especially when it comes to slurs, stereotypes and hatespeech.

As for the direction of this thread - including lockheed's posts, I think we are all able to address issues we have with whatever posts. I believe that direction is, hm, more honest, than trying to tiptoe? I might be wrong, though. I honestly didn*t think for a second about using the term or not, since I use and hear it daily, I probably should have.


Is this pronounced differently in German/Austrian? I remember wanting a word to call other jews when I was younger but couldn't get my head around even saying that word on a regular basis, way too many consonants for normal speech.

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Postby Spotlight Kid » Thu May 17, 2018 7:06 pm

Also I give clown and this thread a lot of credit for opening my eyes about how fucked the israel situation is so ty for that

Edit: also I think basically every lefitst/progressive should read The Past Didn't Go Anywhere at some point, it's a real good way to learn how to not be antisemitic while still being antizionist

https://thepastinfo.files.wordpress.com ... t-read.pdf
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Postby clwon » Thu May 17, 2018 7:24 pm

freezinseason wrote:
john plainman wrote:this thread would make more sense if we also had a 100 page thread on saudi arabia's treatment of yemen, i suppose.


lol we can't even have a thread on north korea without people chiming in to support america. why would a yemen thread be any better.


my guess is bc there's a lot less propaganda about Yemen since its been obliterated by this point
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Postby clwon » Thu May 17, 2018 7:26 pm

Autarch wrote:
clwon wrote:jews shouldn't use that word either

also that DSA statement was written undemocratically and there are points I would have made if they'd shared it later than 8am PST


Yeah, that's why I was saying I agreed w Mortimer. What points would you have made if they shared it later.?


oh their overall platform was done democratically, I believe. my bad on that. I didn't join until after reading that so I'm mostly cool with the language.

I was referring to this, which was drafted in response to the current situation and "finalized" (reviewed by like 5 ppl in Chicago + NYC) by 8am PST, before I'd even woken up
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Postby clwon » Thu May 17, 2018 7:34 pm

as for what I'd add to a statement of solidarity with Gaza:

- they should be able to enter the West Bank with minimal/no security
- they should not be barred entry to Israel
- they should have access to the sea
- Zionists pointing to "Egypt's border" are deflecting to avoid accountability for their subjugation of the Gazan population
- some mention of the Nabka's symbolism and note of why people in Gaza risk their lives to protest the colonization of their land (they have literally nothing to lose but their lives)
- some mention of the typical Zionist/IDF using "defense" and "Israel's right to exist" being backwards and hypocritical when nobody on their side is being attacked, dying or having their land taken away

in general I've found the "Jewish Solidarity Caucus" to be soft on rhetoric and commentary - like, "...we want the Palestinian people to know that there are Jews who cannot abide this happening in our name" reads like projections of guilt, which I can appreciate but personally don't think has any place in a statement of solidarity with oppressed peoples.

American and other diaspora Jews have to start holding western powers accountable (not just calling their congressperson) and destroy the lobby here before we can ever hope for change to happen in MENA. I'd be interested in seeing what can be tangibly done to weaken AIPAC and force mainstream political will and propaganda away from "Israel's right to exist" and more in the direction of "let's stop ethnic cleansing."
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Postby palmer eldritch » Thu May 17, 2018 7:37 pm

I'm confused
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Postby clwon » Thu May 17, 2018 7:45 pm

scrolled back a few pages and now I am too

just to be clear: as a diasporic Jew, I am explicitly anti-Zionist and believe Israel is an ethno-nationalist colonial Apartheid state. I don't think dialing back that rhetoric gets us anywhere aside from further away from liberation of Palestine. I also don't agree with using the word "kike" in any form, regardless of who says it.
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Postby clwon » Thu May 17, 2018 7:47 pm

I'd encourage anyone who hasn't to watch the new documentary "Occupation of the American Mind," which was released like a month ago. great explainer on how Israel has historically used propaganda to justify genocidal behavior.
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Postby identikit » Thu May 17, 2018 8:12 pm

Spotlight Kid wrote:Is this pronounced differently in German/Austrian? I remember wanting a word to call other jews when I was younger but couldn't get my head around even saying that word on a regular basis, way too many consonants for normal speech.


it's the same pronounciation, but you*d be ill advised to for example stand outside the synagogue and go "aber hallo, meine k Freunde/yo hello fellow k friends".
it is a term you use in familiar surroundings, basically, which I realise now.

I have no problem not using the term here, I respect that. Again, I didn't use it to make anyone go off, I simply didn't think that it might not be a good idea here.
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Postby clwon » Thu May 17, 2018 8:14 pm

I still love + respect you, identikit, my fellow tribesperson
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Postby identikit » Thu May 17, 2018 8:16 pm

clwon wrote:jews shouldn't use that word either


but clown, with all due respect, you don*t get to tell me or any other jew which term they are not allowed to call themselves. I will happily invite you to Eurolandia, stay for a bit, meet your neo nazi neighbors and get introduced to euro style laws, and then you can give your opinion which term we may or not may use for what reasons.
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Postby clwon » Thu May 17, 2018 8:19 pm

you can call yourself whatever you want but I don't think an ethnic slur moves our people forward or "gains ownership" of anti-semitism in any positive way. I also think it's a dangerously slippery slope to use that word non-pejoratively when, as pointed out/exemplified in this thread, people equate Zionism with diasporic Judaism.
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Postby identikit » Thu May 17, 2018 8:23 pm

just a theoretic question: do you have the same opinion on gay mean using f, gay woman using d, black people using n, and trangender using ty?

I am thankfully not around poeple who would think for a fucking second that a term they hear gives them a pass to use it themselves.

what I have a much bigger problem with than a word that was turned into a slur, are the "joke remarks" what jews are, what jews do, let alone the very first page with posts like "kill all jews" and "sent to the asschamber". so on my personal level of experience with antisemitism, a slur actually ranks last. just to explain where I am coming from with this.


what is this term boychik, exactly? I have heard it before but I never drew a connection to jews.
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Postby Annie May » Thu May 17, 2018 8:33 pm

Wow the beginning of this thread is a trip
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