HPN WW #5: Welcome to Rajada

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Postby Jarl Skeletal » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:21 am

mikey wrote:i think the book club's attempt at insularity is also why it was particularly hard for no one to trust it. only the book club knew who was in the book club and no one else knew that they should trust the book club and anyone that was interested in providing information to them but was not verifiable was summarily rebuffed, which in turn leads to a bunch of villagers who are open to finding someone to trust with their votes.

i'm not sure if those words made sense, but what i'm trying to say is that this game involves letting the town know how to vote, and if you don't trust anyone not even a little bit, it will be hard to convince them to vote with you


We all took different approaches to the game to try to make sure some of us survived. Stakeout was out trying to shake things loose, I kept up a presence in the thread but didn't do anything too big, and ampersand kept to voting. But behind the scenes we all knew what was going on and what to do if one person died. We even set up codes so that if one did die we could verify the medium. We played a pretty paranoid game so we had a good laugh in book club chat when we were accused of having a leak in our circle.

So, our initial plan was to gather info and give it out to people we trusted to a degree so that it would get out in the open for discussion there. We didn't really want to do the whole "Kill X because we say so" if we could avoid it but the way the game played out that's what ended up happening. Because of the way the game was set up it was really really hard to trust anyone (this made it pretty fun too). Jugdish and Iambic didn't even really get in until the end. We reached out to a few people early on but we didn't like how things went, then with the specials getting killed and just having jugdish we closed up pretty quickly. But, to get back to your initial point, it was a tough position and we could have played it a few different ways but it ended up working in the end so I'm happy with how it went
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Postby can't » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:30 am

stakeout wrote:
surly wrote:but there were consequences

Absolutely and it was selfish of me to blow myself out of the water but I had become something I never wanted to become and had successfully not become in previous games so I just blew it


I will say knowing what info you had when you were silenced that I can better understand your impatience. I can also understand why sleigh would allow you to have your moment. We were going to blackmail you until we couldn't because we knew you would immediately call out the fake medium which would out the fake doc as well. If we had kept you quiet, things were actually looking really good for us. Which was kind of amazing. Good pups can tell you. The pre-gloaming wolf squad were a damn force to be reckoned with. It was awesome.

For example: werd had just convinced vanner that he was both true detective (anonymously) and doctor. Not because vanner was gullible either. It was because werd was unnaturally convincing and things kept falling into place really well. It was seriously amazing conspiring with these guys. All of em. Thanks sleigh!!! Go get em in rocks v turtles.

#WOLFCORP
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:33 am

i'd be interested to hear what other wolf groups think, but i thought it was fun and effective when individual action wasn't all that tightly reined in. especially towards the end when it was me and marc and LoD off in the distance and we were checking in with each other for overall strategy but basically doing our own thing posting. there needs to be some kind of planned way of acting but if it's too tight and not natural for that person i think people are just going to seem weird
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Postby lordofdiapers » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:34 am

Gotta say from experiencing it from both sides and having my own personal investment in it (stake had me figured) I think #wolfcorp is drastically overstating the importance of the gloaming and instead ignoring a few glaring self induced errors that really evened the field
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Postby palmer eldritch » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:39 am

The Unblinking Eye wrote:Props should be given to inspectorhound. His aim was true, and his life was cut too short.


there's a lot of single decisions that you could say 'won the game' for village but I think one of the top candidates is hound shooting grammatron, who kept coasting by
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Postby Jarl Skeletal » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:40 am

keeping stakeout blackmailed really wouldn't have mattered. We kept s pretty good running log of conversations and information in Book Club slack. We all knew that alice was a fake and were going to move on that with or without stakeout. Stakeout getting killed for talking actually would have made our case even stronger.
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Postby can't » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:41 am

there we plently of glaring errors bb. But the most glaring and obvious were Dunston's to point out. It seemed as though the rest of the town were playing right into our hands. But That might just be the feel of when you are pulling off a really unlikely con. Or even several at once.
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:41 am

i think it's both. it absolutely is not the reason we lost, but it made the game much harder for us and also the way it went down i would say hurt our feelings. not in the lame hurt of our feeling way, but it felt rotten.
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:42 am

we also didn't expect to be able to keep blackmailing dunston for more than a day. we joked about how funny it would be to keep blackmailing him until the end, but we knew that alice was done.
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Postby palmer eldritch » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:42 am

I think the gloaming unintentionally got Star-Lord killed, but also, Star-Lord got Star-Lord killed
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Postby Jarl Skeletal » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:42 am

Like, i know you think it was a big deal but he didn't say anything we didn't know and would say with him gone. Iambic and I were actually talking in slack about whether we should out Alice or it would be more fun to wait until stakeout could talk to do it.
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:45 am

i think if you look at the conversation from that point, it moved much faster and more furiously than it would have otherwise. this is subjective.

but the fact that we were able to get it down to your vote i think gives credence to the idea that the gloaming was harmful to us
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Postby sleigh » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:46 am

palmer eldritch wrote:I think the gloaming unintentionally got Star-Lord killed, but also, Star-Lord got Star-Lord killed


he repeated exactly the same mistake something like 12 hours later in slack as if to remove any doubt
so
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Postby sleigh » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:48 am

good pups wrote:i'd be interested to hear what other wolf groups think, but i thought it was fun and effective when individual action wasn't all that tightly reined in. especially towards the end when it was me and marc and LoD off in the distance and we were checking in with each other for overall strategy but basically doing our own thing posting. there needs to be some kind of planned way of acting but if it's too tight and not natural for that person i think people are just going to seem weird


this is interesting

it does seem like public wolf play has gotten increasingly worse as wolves have become more organized/strategic
so
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Postby palmer eldritch » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:49 am

narc blossom wrote:
stakeout wrote:
surly wrote:but there were consequences

Absolutely and it was selfish of me to blow myself out of the water but I had become something I never wanted to become and had successfully not become in previous games so I just blew it


I will say knowing what info you had when you were silenced that I can better understand your impatience. I can also understand why sleigh would allow you to have your moment. We were going to blackmail you until we couldn't because we knew you would immediately call out the fake medium which would out the fake doc as well. If we had kept you quiet, things were actually looking really good for us. Which was kind of amazing. Good pups can tell you. The pre-gloaming wolf squad were a damn force to be reckoned with. It was awesome.

For example: werd had just convinced vanner that he was both true detective (anonymously) and doctor. Not because vanner was gullible either. It was because werd was unnaturally convincing and things kept falling into place really well. It was seriously amazing conspiring with these guys. All of em. Thanks sleigh!!! Go get em in rocks v turtles.

#WOLFCORP


werd/wolves did get me on TD 100% but for the record or whatever I had a lot of skepticism over the doctor claim, which he knows cause I never even gave him alice's name to 'protect'

also for the record I am gullible, which is not mutually exclusive with how werd is great
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:49 am

Capital wrote: Iambic and I were actually talking in slack about whether we should out Alice or it would be more fun to wait until stakeout could talk to do it.


this is exactly what i'm talking about. we understood that alice would be exposed and knew that, blackmailed or not, alice would be the next lynch.

but with dunston back in the conversation, that lynching day discussion moved far beyond alice. it actually went to star lord, too, and doctored conversations from him.
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:51 am

and there's no way star lord wouldn't have been destroyed. he wanted out.

it was just all way more concentrated than it would have been, and i still think we were right to be pretty pissed at the time.

we lost because of the mistakes we made. i don't think us being rightly pissed at the gloaming, then or now, takes away from your win.
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:54 am

but just as all our problems weren't caused by the gloaming, i don't think village can say "yeah it would have always turned out like this, you guys were wrong to be mad/too emotional/thinking about the wrong things"
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Postby can't » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:56 am

I don't see how letting stakeout do it would have been an option if you were aware that we could blackmail him indefinitely but I can understand wanting to let some one else try to reason with a paranoid horde. That said, I could never keep track of what deceptions were working or what damage control needed to be done, and tend to forget or miss important discrepancies. Like goodpups said, we were all taking different approaches. But from my perspective, it was really fun thinking we had at least another day or two before shit started unraveling. Stakeout just appeared to have sped it up. But I can accept if you're telling me its not the case.

I'm not going to defend our reaction any further than that, and I enjoyed fighting to the death in spite of it all. Good times guys.
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:58 am

i mean the natural tendency is just to think that the other side is almost unbelievably stupid. we talked like that all the time. but i do hope the villagers can see our perspective on this. we were working ourselves into a tizzy but we also aren't really unreasonable or unaware of the reality of these situations.
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:59 am

sleigh wrote:
good pups wrote:i'd be interested to hear what other wolf groups think, but i thought it was fun and effective when individual action wasn't all that tightly reined in. especially towards the end when it was me and marc and LoD off in the distance and we were checking in with each other for overall strategy but basically doing our own thing posting. there needs to be some kind of planned way of acting but if it's too tight and not natural for that person i think people are just going to seem weird


this is interesting

it does seem like public wolf play has gotten increasingly worse as wolves have become more organized/strategic


i feel like the truly most important thing is to almost never not lynch another wolf. especially early.
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Postby sleigh » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:01 am

narc blossom wrote:
stakeout wrote:
surly wrote:but there were consequences

Absolutely and it was selfish of me to blow myself out of the water but I had become something I never wanted to become and had successfully not become in previous games so I just blew it


I will say knowing what info you had when you were silenced that I can better understand your impatience. I can also understand why sleigh would allow you to have your moment.


I want to be clear, because this is the second time today this has come up, that I did not "allow" stakeout to "have [a] moment" of any kind. Here's what happened:

I was watching a movie with a friend, I heard some dings on my computer, it's stakeout, he's drunk and pissed that night's not over because he wants to make "a last stand." I, not really thinking about WW & thinking this was one of the many "i'm gonna diiiieee" DMs I got throughout the game, stupidly said "go ahead, make a last stand, who gives a shit," mute the computer, step away. By the time I come back, I have some DMs from stakeout ("Wait, are you letting me talk?" "???" "I'm going to take your silence as a yes") and the thread has blown up. I immediately DM stakeout to say My mistake, I totally forgot you were blackmailed. Hold on, let me handle this; make a post in the thread saying this thing was my fault and I'm not killing him, figuring that was that. Also dumb: instead of being crystal clear about what had happened — assuming that stakeout, who I knew was drunk at the time, was capable of putting 2+2 together — I made up a little flavor texty thing about the gloaming. And then I had a morning where I couldn't check in on the game at all and by the time I did he had gone wild then off to work.

So that's what happened: from my perspective, as a little bit of poor modding on my behalf and a lot of what I would charitably term willful ignorance on stakeout's.
so
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:02 am

and at first the impulse seems strongest to not lynch one of team evil, to try to argue against it, because nobody really knows anything so what harm could it do. but i feel like those early lynches are all landslides no matter what, so if you go against a wolf who gets lynched you're tarred for the rest of the game.
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:10 am

one thing that i think is really effective for villages with specials is to have minor little pretend squabbles and accuse each other on purpose but then kind of move on

i think with people like amp we felt that they had to have some kind of role because they were missing from the action but not really getting called out

but then people like guy incognito and IH we just had no idea about and felt like it was too big a risk to target, because they would get more heat from confirmed good guys
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:11 am

not that those were pretend accusations (though weren't some of guy's?) but man, if ALL the villagers were always fighting with each other and accusing each other in public, wolves would just have no idea where to start
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:13 am

oh yeah, that makes sense. there were so many roles that i barely knew who had which role till like a few days ago. werd made a spreadsheet but i always forgot to check it.
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Postby can't » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:13 am

You don't have to explain that again. I watched it all happen in real time. Which is embarrassing enough but true. I know exactly what happened and how it played out. I'm not belaboring your decision as mod or any of the consequences. Just so I'm clear. Whether you were thinking about moderating knowing he was blackmailed, (which seems likely given he was asking you if he could talk) makes no real difference to me at this point. Our ever expanding house of cards was just waiting to be toppled so.

edit: just a fun fact. I think I remember either wanting to or actually advising against trying to claim roles and maintain a long con. But it was very fun to watch and made me proud, knowing exactly how much work was going in to these gambits, and watching them succeed even momentarily.
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Postby good pups » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:14 am

(the spreadsheet wasn't just to identify the roles we had, of course)
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Postby werd » Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:40 am

good pups wrote:oh yeah, that makes sense. there were so many roles that i barely knew who had which role till like a few days ago. werd made a spreadsheet but i always forgot to check it.


for the record Alice made that spreadsheet, I just helped keep it updated
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Postby iambic » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:23 am

delgriffith wrote:- I think there's a reason Jugdish never trusted iambic, even though iambic was mad about that.

del, you've said this a few times now, despite the fact that Jugdish told me later he did trust me and had no doubts I was good; he just wanted to isolate himself from everybody. when I finally reached out to him, he actually tried to prove to me that he was the Medium, as if I were the one who would need trust in the relationship.

you seem to have taken this very hard, so please, don't hold back. tell me the reason Jugdish didn't trust me. or maybe Jugdish can? also, I wouldn't have "severed" ties with you (or palmer) except for the fact that I died. if I had lived through that night, I would have been talking to everyone I was talking to prior.
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