Twin Peaks Season 3 (May 21st)

Health insurance rip off lying FDA big bankers buying
Fake computer crashes dining
Cloning while they're multiplying
Fashion shoots with Beck and Hanson
Courtney Love, and Marilyn Manson
You're all fakes
Run to your mansions
Come around
We'll kick your ass in

Postby manvstrees » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:08 pm

(plus i think it's very clear in how and why it is problematic, exactly as problematic as it should be, and i dont find any of it misogynist outside of SAY FUCK ME
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Postby manvstrees » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:09 pm

wollogallu wrote:are you steamed? you seem steamed for some reason


i don't.......feel steamed?
tone is tough, its the internet

edit: sorry about dingus, thought that was pretty light
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Postby wollogallu » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:12 pm

ok good :)
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Postby OKterrific » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:33 pm

wollogallu wrote:not engaging with violence towards women in lynch is idiotic, "woman in trouble" is literally his self-proclaimed definitive trope and youre just gonna elide it as a bad take?


pretty sure you're addressing mvt here but just to be clear I was referring to the "wow can't believe Lynch isn't an IRL piece of shit" take
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Postby naturemorte » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:52 pm

to put it as simply as i possibly can (would like to write more but i'm busy writing other shit): "twin peaks" is set in a universe of power which is organized around the traffic in women's suffering. it's the central logic that links disparate worlds and is the engine of just about every economy the show represents. the show is also deeply self reflexive, as i tried to explain in my post many pages ago, in that it reproduces the relationship between author&text/spectator&text in the relationship between worlds. to some extent, judy and bob and the fireman are all avatars for both the viewer and the author of the show. it's about, among many other things, what it means to create characters in order to watch them suffer, or to participate in a culture that is organized around the circulation of that violence.

which is to say, i think lynch is very self-aware about the place of representations of violence against women in media culture, although part of the brilliance of the show is in the way it transmutes that awareness into something very original and strange and complex. but at the center of everything he's made since lost highway is the function of women as currency within economies of spectacle and the suffering and trauma of being put in that position. just because his work is about that and aware of that doesn't mean that we shouldn't interrogate it--it's exactly why takes that DON'T address that question are totally fucking useless.
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Postby wollogallu » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:54 pm

naturemorte wrote:just because his work is about that and aware of that doesn't mean that we shouldn't interrogate it--it's exactly why takes that DON'T address that question are totally fucking useless.



yep!
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Postby manvstrees » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:55 pm

you have to interrogate it well

i mean you don't HAVE to
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Postby naturemorte » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:57 pm

like, it's completely valid within the terms of "twin peaks" to suggest that the show is ultimately a grand allegory for the failure of our myths of redemption to compensate for the violence upon which those myths are founded. which, i think, makes it totally legitimate to say, "i have a problem with TP:TR because I recognize that it is unable to validate itself against the charges it itself makes against its own reasons for existing."
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Postby naturemorte » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:59 pm

manvstrees wrote:you have to interrogate it well

i mean you don't HAVE to

i agree, i would love to rattle off another 5000 words about it, and clearly somebody needs to

edit: 6000 posts baby
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Postby wollogallu » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:00 pm

manvstrees wrote:you have to interrogate it well


posts that offer "can we not" only serve to inhibit people from trying
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Postby manvstrees » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:01 pm

wollogallu wrote:
manvstrees wrote:you have to interrogate it well


posts that offer "can we not" only serve to inhibit people from trying


tough
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Postby manvstrees » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:02 pm

:D
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Postby wollogallu » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:02 pm

There they are Albert .... posts of stone
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Postby manvstrees » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:05 pm

naturemorte wrote:like, it's completely valid within the terms of "twin peaks" to suggest that the show is ultimately a grand allegory for the failure of our myths of redemption to compensate for the violence upon which those myths are founded. which, i think, makes it totally legitimate to say, "i have a problem with TP:TR because I recognize that it is unable to validate itself against the charges it itself makes against its own reasons for existing."


this is solid, i'm usually too hung up on authorial intent and taking the story on its own terms, vs clouding the argument and a sort of basic misunderstanding of exploitation and some judgements towards the motivation of the camera's gaze but i'm not someone who can be very coherent about it
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Postby forest design » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:41 pm

On instagram Julee Cruise is saying a DVD of Lynch’s Industrial Symphony #1 are available now, but she hasn’t said where yet
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Postby forest design » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:43 pm

light rail coyote wrote:
naturemorte wrote:the violence against women (and general mother/whore, bitch/victim dynamics) in season 3 made it really, really hard to take for me
people want to celebrate this thing because it's a massive, singular, visionary work at a time when things like that just don't happen, but we're all postponing a reckoning that's going to have to happen at some point. i generally feel that the reason we want to be done with that take is because no one's made the argument effectively yet, not that the premise itself is flawed.
but then again people have been voting vertigo to #1 on the movie lists, which is also unacceptable for the same reasons, so maybe that reckoning is a long ways off still


i'm not sold on the idea that twin peaks uses violence against women in an exploitative way but i do agree that part of my skepticism is that i've never seen that argument made in a compelling way. it's usually just a list of "here's a bunch of times where there was violence against women" with no examination of context.

also disagree that this isn't worth examining- it's a major theme of lynch's work and as such is fair game.


Didn’t mean it wasn’t worth talking about, just that we’ve addressed this issue at least a few times before in this thread yet it keeps being brought up like some gotcha
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Postby OKterrific » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:32 pm

definitely gonna watching this whole thing later but she talks about Peaks at around 43 minutes

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Postby internethandle » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:17 pm

i finally finished the extras. enjoyed all of them but i could have used less herzog in the jason s ones and overall enjoyed beymer's more, but i guess that's to be expected given all the red room stuff in beymer's. machlachlan deserves a golden globe just for doing his own stunts on that shifting floor/dive scene, jesus. got fanboy chills when sheryl lee asked lynch what she sees when she looks up in the red room before getting pulled up and away while screaming, and he says something like "you see something there, and you see that it's true."

bingo can we get a weigh in on these extras
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Postby bongo » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:18 pm

i havent seen them!

i still hvaent done a rewatch of anything either!
yeaaaaaaaaaaaa american nostalgia love it suburban living civilized families this could be my life
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Postby internethandle » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:22 pm

yeah me either re: rewatch

my dad got a 4K/Ultra HD OLED or whatever in the last few weeks and he has 5.1 so i'm gonna prob. gonna take the blu ray over there and watch 1 through 5 and 8 and maybe the last two or something, then fill in the rest on my own
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Postby bongo » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:23 pm

ah man that sounds great
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Postby Kevin McCallister » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:39 pm

Got my copy in the mail today.

I think I may just skip to episode 8 and then rewatch the first couple of seasons before doing 3.
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Postby john plainman » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:53 pm

Kevin McCallister wrote:Got my copy in the mail today.

I think I may just skip to episode 8 and then rewatch the first couple of seasons before doing 3.


i accidentally did this and i think its the way to go.

a friend was visiting and the last episode they had seen was 7, so we watched 8 together and it still blew me away so i went back and watched s1/most of s2. its weird watching the original seasons now. they feel off.
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Postby john plainman » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:53 pm

like twin peaks s3 was the way it was meant to be
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Postby manvstrees » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:18 pm

mostly because i've seen all the original series a dozen times, i don't need or want to bridge the gap at any point
everything about the return goes out of its way to make that gap so glaring and to address it head on

i need to keep this in mind with my hopes for another season. i really do not fire up a return ep after how's annie, and as desperate i always will be for more, i don't want "what year is this?" and laura's scream and those credits to feel like it ever gets a smooth or immediate follow-up.
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Postby tricksforchips » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:45 pm

forest design wrote:
Didn’t mean it wasn’t worth talking about, just that we’ve addressed this issue at least a few times before in this thread yet it keeps being brought up like some gotcha

I'm not sure if it's a "gotcha" but in a thread loaded with people who have hard time hearing criticism of Lynch, it's sometimes the only way to get the discussion started. Whether it's a long drawn out response about the misogyny and sexual violence in Lynch's entire oeuvre or a one sentence response calling him out for his apparently misogynist narratives and images, the response will always be "can we not" or "not again."

As a director whose filmography is so closely tied to his persona, it's hard not to think about the inherent reasons behind why he employs so many sexually violent images and narratives towards women. While I would love to believe that he is simply interested in examining trauma and sexual based trauma -- we also have to look at his personal history: He supported Reagan, he is ~30 years older than his current wife, and he wanted to exonerate Roman Polanski. He rose to popularity in a Hollywood that was rampant with misogyny. I think you'd need a lot of cognitive dissonance or be very naive to think he was immune to misogynist ideals. Furthermore, to say that he is completely pure in his intentions with violence towards women in his films, or at least wants to question it and subvert it, seems to be rather farfetched. I straight up think think Lynch has some real problematic views towards women: "purity and impurity" being a major issue and archaic view of women that is hugely prevalent in all of his work (except maybe Inland Empire.) I think for the most part he hides a lot of his problematic views of women behind a surrealism where we can forgive the images we encounter in his work. Sure, a woman is killed in her lingerie -- but it's all fair game in this "Lynchian world" he created. I also think he's fully aware of this and, thinks he can get past a lot of the criticism by calling attention to it (at least in The Return.) As long as things remain "Lynchian," there isn't an issue.

And he might be supremely interested in exploring sexual trauma towards women-- but why? Why is Lynch the one who should explore and portray the subtle nuances of this intensely female issue? Why is a Polanski sympathizer the one to do it? Well he's done it and he's based much of his career off of it.

I think we all, myself included, want to tell ourselves that Lynch is incredibly attuned to the violent images towards women in his work, as well as the gender roles in his films -- because his work is so goddamn interesting outside of it. Because he creates something truly formally unique with the medium. But I don't think, or have ever thought, that Lynch makes work that is a broken and warped window into the world that we live in. I think Lynch makes work that is a broken and warped window into Lynch.
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Postby manvstrees » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:58 pm

Its a gotcha
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Postby iacus » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:12 pm

manvstrees wrote:Its a gotcha


wow that's an extremely compelling argument, I can tell you've thought really hard about this
(there was a hyperbole)
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Postby naturemorte » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:19 pm

all i can say is that despite the fact that we basically fell in love over our shared lynch obsession, my wife could barely deal with s3. it's not a "gotcha" for her, because she wanted very much to love it and felt alienated by its representation of women.

i see a great many female critics celebrating s3, so i wouldn't take mme morte's experience as definitive, but i think part of the reason why we're not hearing better criticisms on this issue is that, as with so much in lynch, its visceral and intuitive. if you're upset by the violence to the degree that you can't engage with the work, it doesn't seem like something worth writing thousands of words about just to make the point that it's oppressive, especially when there are so many fanboys and girls eager to shut down criticisms of lynch's depiction of women. by the same token, if you're as deeply engaged by it as many here are, there are more interesting things to discuss than the question of whether lynch is a misogynist, and writing something that defends it along those lines would neither do the writer or the show many favors—something i could see being especially uninteresting to female critics for whom there is a lot more to think about in s3 than whether lynch has fucked-up views of women (he does).

anyway, the fact that it gets construed as a "gotcha" (rather than a fundamental question the show is asking about itself and its medium) shows that passions are still so high about it that there maybe isn't room yet for more ambivalent attitudes
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Postby john plainman » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:23 pm

Yeah my wife dipped out of s3 pretty quickly. I think the motel scene was the last straw for her
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