i lvoe the grateful dead with all my heart

Health insurance rip off lying FDA big bankers buying
Fake computer crashes dining
Cloning while they're multiplying
Fashion shoots with Beck and Hanson
Courtney Love, and Marilyn Manson
You're all fakes
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Come around
We'll kick your ass in

Postby powderfinger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:45 pm

Dick's Picks 4 is so fucking good. It looms large for me because it was the first Dead release I ever bought, blindly guided by AllMusic ratings, and I had no fucking idea what to make of it at 16 and "jamming" to me meant a stupid DMB violin solo.
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Postby gauchebag » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:48 pm

can someone explain the song dark star to me?

i keep ending up listening to these long versions and i don't know what's going on, i don't know where i am, i don't even understand if there are "parts" to the song or what they are? isn't there a studio version somewhere? is that what I should be listening to?

is it like a Phish YEM thing where are certain definitely identifiable parts? struggling to come to terms with this grateful dead song
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Postby k_uger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:08 pm

gauche - the more apt comparison is Tweezer, but if they spontaneously changed around where the free improv occurs... before v1, between verses, after all the lyrics...

the song and the riff are similar to the “head” in a jazz tune (or again, the Tweezer riff), wherein that’s the most structured part of the song and everything after is trading rounds of solos (traditional jazz) or free improv afterwards (what the Dead does, what Phish does, what Coltrane and Miles morphed into, although you could argue those explorations as 20+ minute “solos” as well, since often one member had the “lead” in those moments from the mid-60’s on, abouts)



here’s the single of it from 1968, its most stripped down form... over the course of years, and even individual tours Dark Star would evoke certain themes, grooves, motifs, and musical concepts and conversations that may emerge over several versions in a given year, or for a while they may tend to jam into a particular song, not unlike how individual Phish tours take on certain thematic elements that you may hear over the course is different shows and jams.... but ultimately each version is unique to itself

the Dead’s style of improv leans much more towards anarchic chaos in the period from 1968-1971, and still very much after that, but once they added Keith into the mix on piano/electric piano the stylistic elements to the long jams followed jazzier patterns, and took on a great deal of Bitches Brew style influences, and become a little more similar to what a long experimental Phish jam from 1993-95 might resemble in structure, hitting on ever changing 1-3 minute “sections”

the Dead’s style of improv is a much bigger boat than Phish’s, however, and it’s slower to steer and doesn’t navigate the intricate twists and turns your ears might expect from the “younger” band (in terms of linear time / when they each developed their sound), like a cruise ship couldn’t bring you to same coves and lagoons that a sailboat or motorboat could... but if you hang on for the ride you’ll soon find yourself in unfamiliar waters on strange, faraway continents

here’s a reference to the musical concept of the “head” in jazz, which a lot of these improvisationally based tunes resemble, often with more or less structure, depending on if we’re talking about Dark Star, Eyes, Tweezer, or Ghost...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_(music)
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Postby abominog » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:08 pm

gauchebag wrote:can someone explain the song dark star to me?

i keep ending up listening to these long versions and i don't know what's going on, i don't know where i am, i don't even understand if there are "parts" to the song or what they are? isn't there a studio version somewhere? is that what I should be listening to?

is it like a Phish YEM thing where are certain definitely identifiable parts? struggling to come to terms with this grateful dead song


There's a studio/single version and it's pretty hilarious. Super short, and with banjo outro.



Here's a fantastic paper called "Tonal and Expressive Ambiguity in 'Dark Star'" http://www.lipscomb.umn.edu/rock/docs/Boone1997_GratefulDead.pdf
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Postby warmjets » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:17 pm

Image
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Postby gauchebag » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:23 pm

thanks kruger that's a helpful post. While I have never heard the term 'head' the concept makes immediate sense to me as someone somewhat familiar with improvisational music

would you consider the recurring theme from Can's Halleluhwah to be 'head'?

i like the boat analogy too
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Postby beefbroth inthe shitpipes » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:01 pm

Last night I listen to Fillmore West 2/28/69
Love light blew my mind. Jerry is on fire playing so damn quickly from 5:30 on.

https://open.spotify.com/track/5ltZRNA0 ... eV1EEDP3dw
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Postby beefbroth inthe shitpipes » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:01 pm

Also they just announced a giant box set from June 1976. Sounds great.
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Postby Grand Epic » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:12 pm

Hey I was joking upthread about the Dead being the first post rock band, but is it a stretch to say I hear a lot in common maybe, in a general sense at least, with Miles’ 60s second great quintet stuff? Both had the appearance of formlessness, both bands had the whole “everyone soloing at once yet playing as one” kind of feel, etc. Not saying the Dead were jazz, per se.
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Postby guy forget » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:17 pm

I once asked k uger that same question and got the same boat metaphor :)
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Postby jewels » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:22 pm

guy forget wrote:I once asked k uger that same question and got the same boat metaphor :)


I thought it sounded familiar! I probably responded that I don’t like Dark Stars. Still don’t!
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Postby guy forget » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:29 pm

I’m giving dark star another shot rn will report back
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Postby guy forget » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:29 pm

I love how dark Star FEELS but not really how it sounds ya know what I mean
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Postby Grand Epic » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:33 pm

I’m a pretty new fan and I’ve heard some Dark Stars that I’ve liked but I’ve never been blown away by it. On the other hand it could be one of those things that doesn’t sound impressive at first then sneaks up on you after multiple listens, so I haven’t written it off or anything.
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Postby jewels » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:37 pm

I like the actual two minute song, and get excited when I hear those notes, but I'm frequently not in the mood for where it's going. There are a few that live up to the hype, but I forget which those are.
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Postby guy forget » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:38 pm

I’m listening to 9/11/73 and it’s really nice actually
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Postby guy forget » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:40 pm

I have a very low tolerance for chaotic noise and dissonance which is how a lot of dark stars (and deep dead jams in general) hit my ears but this has a very stable form and structure and I’m feelin it heavily
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Postby jewels » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:44 pm

When dead go all pick scrapes and off time cymbal taps I usually lose interest, but sometimes it hits the spot and I’m glad those excursions exist even if I’m rarely in the mood.
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Postby k_uger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:20 pm

goddamnit, guy...

okay start with Live Dead... listen a few times, and include the St Stephen > The Eleven
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Postby k_uger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:32 pm

(correction, Live/Dead IS 2/27/69)... then listen to 2/13 & 2/14/70, then 2/24 & 10/18/74 (both > Morning Dew at Winterland), then Phil and Phriends 4/17/99 set 2 (catering to your taste, it’s not anything equivalent but still dope af)

then 12/6/73 (loooong and mellifluous, its chaos more akin to Miles), then 1/19/79 (again catering to taste, it’s mellower than most pre hiatus versions)... ughhhh 9/19/70 is amazing...

8/28/69 is with a dope jazz organ player, no Bobby or pig...
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Postby Althea » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:33 pm

Dark Star is a river, it exists beyond what anyone thinks about it.

Dark Star is a painted door that takes you to another dimension, but it's a different one every time, and some of them are delicate and beautiful, some are boring, some are terrifying. Eventually you come to understand that they're all part of the same enormous universe and that the whole thing is inside of you.

Dark Star is a soft grassy field in the summer on a sunny day, and you lie down looking at the clouds so long that you don't notice that the grass is growing until you've already been subsumed into the landscape.

Dark Star 50 years ago at around 18-19 minutes is very melodic.
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Postby k_uger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:34 pm

although maybe after the Live Dead version go just plod around 68 and early 69 for the like short and sweet 10 minute versions that contain plenty of beauty, while exemplify the winding freedom that they would expand upon ad infinitum, with chaos that is contained in a more concise garage rock sort of expression
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Postby k_uger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:39 pm

oh, and 8/27/92, which there is an excellent video of

I get it that they can be noisy, but A) there are plenty of versions that keep that to a minimum and B) you have to learn to let those moments just wash over you, and allow yourself to experience discomfort without judgment, and in that way allow yourself to find a measure of tolerance of the dissonance.. comfort in discomfort

ultimately Dark Star was (and is) a great musical conversation threaded through their career and beyond, one that’s still ongoing today if you can listen and tap into it... it’s a great great joy to experience if you allow yourself the same transitional process that it took to enjoy and appreciate Phish and the Dead in the first place
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Postby Althea » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:42 pm

Guy, have you heard the Miami 89 Dark Star, it's like the Vegas Wolfman's combined with the storage jam.



The Bethel soundcheck Waves and the Boogie > Waves from the actual Bethel show were the most I've heard Phish sound like a Dark Star jam, until last year's Mohegan Sea of Stars.
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Postby k_uger » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:43 pm

and YES on the Dead being the first post rock band :D
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Postby Althea » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:47 pm

Dark Star is a trip, sometimes you groove along mellow and giggling, sometimes you go type II and wind up on Venus fighting off 20 foot tall fire ants. You always get home in the end though.
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Postby VHGisdead » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:50 pm

Dark Star is the Dead's One Step Behind
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Postby Althea » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:51 pm

God, could you imagine if Phil had pivoted to Chicagoey instrumental post-rock after Jerry's death? Like joined Tortoise or the Necks?
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Postby Althea » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:58 pm

VHGisdead wrote:Dark Star is the Dead's One Step Behind


One Step Behind is the Dead's One Step Beyond
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Postby Althea » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:59 pm

There is an 80s outtake that Save Your Face posted that sounds kind of like the Dead are playing ska
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