Succession (HBO)

Health insurance rip off lying FDA big bankers buying
Fake computer crashes dining
Cloning while they're multiplying
Fashion shoots with Beck and Hanson
Courtney Love, and Marilyn Manson
You're all fakes
Run to your mansions
Come around
We'll kick your ass in

Postby Merciel » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:40 am

The Shiv/Tom thing has puzzled me since day one. She doesn't seem to respect him, doesn't seem to be attracted to him (which: fair), barely seems to like him.

I'm not sure what the deal is or was ever supposed to be. For a while I thought maybe it was that he was a useful loyal patsy who could be engineered into the position that she didn't think Logan would give her directly, but Shiv isn't that smart or that cold, and if that was ever her plan (which I'm not sure about, but it seems at least to have been what Tom thought would happen), she's been wildly inconsistent about it.

Maybe it's as simple as Tom being a nice guy in a world where nice guys barely exist, but I dunno, nothing about Shiv so far has signaled that that's something she'd care about.
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Postby Franco » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:45 am

I couldn't tell if she was amused/laughing at him during the beach speech or if the character has the trait of smile/laugh while nervous baked into her. the former fits more in line with what I thought her feelings toward Tom to be all along.

I think there's work to do in terms of explaining why she loves him or would need him in any way. Unless I missed something around wedding time last season.
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Postby tgk » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:50 am

Every A type needs a B type to ground them. The Roy's are extremely competitive to a fault so Shiv is probably relieved to be partnered with someone who is not her competition, who she doesn't need to battle and play games with every second of the day like she does with her father.
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Postby Peptobysmal » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:57 am

I think Shiv always likes to feel positioned halfway outside the family circle, and I think the ways in which he is a half-way decent husband play into that. Also he just kinda grovels a lot and they all suck so maybe that feels nice, I dunno.
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Postby tgk » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:03 am

I was gonna say something about maybe shiv wanting to have children (I remember Logan barking at Tom about how if he wanted to make himself useful he'd give him a grandchild) since none of the other siblings have children but then I remember Kendall has kids lol.
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Postby Feech La Manna » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:18 am



extremely mad tweet
badhat wrote:bike solve all problems
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Postby Merciel » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:50 am

tgk wrote:Every A type needs a B type to ground them.


Yeah, I dunno about that. Marcia didn't exactly strike me as a Type B. Neither do Naomi or Tabitha, although admittedly we haven't seen a whole lot of either of them in a professional context (well, maybe, depending on what exactly it is that Tabitha does). But they seem a lot more willing and able to stand up for themselves than Tom, who is unfailingly a doormat to those who outrank him, abusive to those below, and ever-conscious of where he slots into any status ladder anywhere he goes.

The Shiv/Tom thing is saying something a little more complicated than Type A/Type B, but I'm not sure what it is.
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Postby Marcus » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:51 am

Tom is safe, that's about it to me. I dunno.
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Postby Marcus » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:55 am

Clearly felt like this was the conversation before... the conversation (divorce)

But i don't think the show will do that and I assume Tom and Shiv are going to be miserable for a while til the writers finally give Tom his moment in some way that makes Shiv give him credit?
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Postby tgk » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:57 am

what ever happened to tabitha anyway? they really just dropped that plotline altogether
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Postby Franco » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:57 am

Marcus wrote:til the writers finally give Tom his moment in some way that makes Shiv give him credit?

this already happened with him standing up for himself
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Postby endless dave » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:59 am

it was such a nice little coda on the Greg/Tom relationship thatI don't think either of them threw the other one under the bus in any real way during the dinner scene, even when paired off with each otherToggle Spoiler
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Postby Marcus » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:01 pm

I guess I'm not sold on Shiv actually legit changing after that. The ask of "just not Tom, ok?" felt more out of survival than love but I should prob just rewatch
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Postby Franco » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:07 pm

i saw it that she got legit sad and wanted to do better by him. she may have gotten turned on by the chicken thing too
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Postby Ampersand » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:09 pm

Didn't Logan lay out the appeal of Tom to Shiv at one point? Something like she's "terrified of marrying anyone capable of thinking to betray her"
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Postby badhat » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:34 pm

thats how i always read it

everything around her is cutthroat (and she loves it) and she cant trust anyone, but has a pet husband that she knows is loyal and needs her more than she needs him and she finds that comforting.

i think she loves him. shes just emotionally incompetent like the rest of them.
There’s no path to a satisfying conclusion at this point.
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Postby badhat » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:47 pm

there was a lowkey recurring bit in the first season where shiv and tom had a dog that was either penned up in their living room, totally ignored, or being walked by a walker and ignored. thats shiv. she likes unchallenging, comforting things in her personal space that she can ignore and neglect but know theyre around.
There’s no path to a satisfying conclusion at this point.
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Postby endless dave » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:50 pm

badhat wrote:totally forgot the greg/kendall scene in s1/10 where greg tells him about the copies

“greg the motherfuckin egg, you machiavellian fuck

i see you greg, i like it”


I completely forgot about this to the point where my GF and I were trying to figure out when Greg would have told Kendall. and what the impetus was.Toggle Spoiler

rewatching the scene, it's definitely season 2 Greg coming through because he sees Kendall, who he thinks is about to be CEO and gives a quick pitch of "we need to clean up this rotten company" then pivots into mentioning that he has the documents and then immediately says "and so it'd be important to keep me close." he blackmails Kendall before he blackmails Tom. it's a great scene of Greg learning the game and getting praise for it. he says something like "hell yeah" all sheepishly proud after Kendall says "I like it"
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Postby badhat » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:43 pm

its so easy to foget bc so much happens in that ep, but in hindsight, it informs a lot of kendall and gregs relationship this season.
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Postby Marcus » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:59 pm

i just hope we can still get scenes like greg doing coke and tom laughing at him with glee
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Postby tgk » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:01 pm

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Postby Marx & Engels » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:42 pm

badhat wrote:i think she loves him. shes just emotionally incompetent like the rest of them.


Yeah, I kind of took the Shiv-Logan scene as the show answering the question of "Why is Shiv even with Tom?" with "She genuinely cares about him (or at least tells herself she does)." Which means stuff like the wedding night open relationship proposition + floating him as a fall guy isn't borne out indifference toward him; it's just the way she treats someone important to her
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Postby dubs » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:02 pm

tgk wrote:Thought tom and shivs beach conversation was really incredible, I've definitely had a few conversations like that and the pauses and hesitancy and sadness of it all was spot on


First thing I thought of after that scene was how “real” it was.
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Postby jca » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:52 pm

i wanna watch kendall walk down halls and through doorways on loop
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Postby tgk » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:53 pm

How much do you think it would cost to redo all the floors on a superyacht in teak?
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Postby tgk » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:55 pm

Rough estimate appears to be about 150k.
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Postby badhat » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:00 pm

what would it cost just to rent that thing to film for 2-3 weeks? it was such a glorious setting for the finale. man.
There’s no path to a satisfying conclusion at this point.
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Postby virtuous » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:07 pm

badhat wrote:what would it cost just to rent that thing to film for 2-3 weeks? it was such a glorious setting for the finale. man.

I was thinking this too, but I watch way too much Below Deck.
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Postby virtuous » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:10 pm

They’re usually like 150k-250k per week depending on the size. The one on the show looked like the higher end of that.
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Postby Merciel » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:10 pm

Well, if you're renting it to film then you're not really renting it to use the way they do on that show (or at least that's my understanding, I've never actually watched it).

So I think that angle, at least, is one you don't have to worry about.

The extremely shitty carbon footprint is still all on you, though!
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