Thread to Discuss The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (#CHAZ)

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Postby Cronos » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:04 pm

Sobieski wrote:What was it supposed to ‘do’?


Fix everything.
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Postby Sobieski » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:04 pm

If it was supposed to permanently establish an autonomous zone in seattle, whatever that even means, then it failed

But I think there’s something to be said for watching ideas get put to the test of reality for the first time
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Postby rt1 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:42 pm

No :cry:
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Postby big zorb » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:46 pm

Sobieski wrote:If it was supposed to permanently establish an autonomous zone in seattle, whatever that even means, then it failed

But I think there’s something to be said for watching ideas get put to the test of reality for the first time


Totally agreed!
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Postby big zorb » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:47 pm

I don't recall the CHAZ claiming that it would fix all problems so if your expectations were for something like that that's on you baby!
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Postby rt1 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:50 pm

Sobieski wrote:What was it supposed to ‘do’?


Reiterating what I said in the first page, but I feel like it could have been an antithesis to the aggression shown by the state, and also be used as an example of a system designed for inhabitants and not institutions.

But alas, seems weird that suddenly two people were shot out of nowhere. Need to see more about this.
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Postby palmer eldritch » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:52 pm

I mean, it wasn't accomplishing anything at all when people weren't getting shot either
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Postby rt1 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:53 pm

I was not thrilled by their list of demands either. Felt "on trend" more than an attempt to make the zone sustainable.

Agree that we should keep giving ideas like this a shot.
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Postby rt1 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:57 pm

palmer eldritch wrote:I mean, it wasn't accomplishing anything at all when people weren't getting shot either


It's existence is the accomplishment.
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Postby palmer eldritch » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:58 pm

eh
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Postby palmer eldritch » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:58 pm

I posted twice
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Postby fester » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:03 am

local reporting indicates they're determined to stay. also indicates the cops are determined to return. the mayor claims to have come to some kind of agreement that CHOP would be vacated during the nights but when she said that there were no CHOP representatives there. I'm not even sure who the CHOP representatives are. I know they're big fans of Nikkita Oliver but I don't know how involved she's been after the first couple nights. Kshama Sawant acts like she speaks for them but I don't think they're on board with her.

Anyway gonna be a huge shitshow in the coming days.
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Postby rt1 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:17 am

palmer eldritch wrote:eh


Its existence is to question whether there is another way that runs counter to established norms and precedent that have fallen apart under any amount of scrutiny but continue on as if we dont know there are major problems. So what if we give this idea of an autonomous zone a shot and let it evolve to meet its own needs.

Meanwhile you're asking for a SWOT analysis and anticipated CAGR.
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Postby loaf angel » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:46 am



what's going on at the CHOP? this is the third dead black person in only a few weeks. the reports say it was "security" who shot? this is all a bit confusing
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Postby light rail coyote » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:03 pm

big zorb wrote:
Sobieski wrote:If it was supposed to permanently establish an autonomous zone in seattle, whatever that even means, then it failed

But I think there’s something to be said for watching ideas get put to the test of reality for the first time


Totally agreed!


yeah, exactly. any actual transformative change will mean building alternative social structures and spaces that are independent of conventional structures, and whatever imperfections that CHAZ had, any attempt at figuring out what that could look like in a practical sense is a worthy experiment. obviously there's the risk of occupying for the sake of occupying, but it does seem like at its best, CHAZ was primarily geared to creating an organizing hub that could assist the larger protests in being sustainable over a long period of time and keeping the protests ongoing is a good goal in this case since anyone who has followed seattle politics at all over the past decade knows that city leadership has no interest in actually addressing any of these issues and that constant civil disobedience is necessary here.

at it's worst, the biggest issues seemed to have been ones that aren't particularly surprising in a city that's dominated by a weird split of both anarchists and liberals. anarchists are good at setting up initial mutual aid infrastructure, but really suck at scaling up or formalizing anything because horizontalism honestly just doesn't work as a sustainable organizing structure. horizontalism denies the ability for any kind of formal, accountable leadership to form, which in turn means that you have the formation of informal leadership cliques that are completely unaccountable to anyone else. worse, it allowed more liberal elements to take over leadership in the public eye- eliza gauger was covering this pretty in depth, arguing that some of the shootings were a direct result of liberal elements refusing to let antifascist groups remove patriot prayer people by force even after they were caught on camera harassing and assaulting people because "peaceful protest!!"

the demands weren't terrible but there definitely needed to be more coordination with other protest leaders and make things more overtly political, maybe following a model like cooperation jackson or something, and more importantly there needs to be actual organizational structures and some kind of accountable organizational democracy instead of just vague calls for horizontalism and meaningless general assemblies.
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Postby light rail coyote » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:08 pm

and yeah, i don't normally like to get this glib, but treating something as inherently messy as this type of radical organizing as an all-or-nothing thing where they clearly failed because they didn't directly defund the police is basically just someone admitting that they don't actually understand movement politics and organizing.
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Postby Annie May » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:09 pm

Sounds like a lot of the liberals on this board
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Postby loaf angel » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:10 pm

like i thought they disbanded, but there's something that amounts to security on the ground?
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Postby Sobieski » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:00 pm

light rail coyote wrote:
yeah, exactly. any actual transformative change will mean building alternative social structures and spaces that are independent of conventional structures, and whatever imperfections that CHAZ had, any attempt at figuring out what that could look like in a practical sense is a worthy experiment. obviously there's the risk of occupying for the sake of occupying, but it does seem like at its best, CHAZ was primarily geared to creating an organizing hub that could assist the larger protests in being sustainable over a long period of time and keeping the protests ongoing is a good goal in this case since anyone who has followed seattle politics at all over the past decade knows that city leadership has no interest in actually addressing any of these issues and that constant civil disobedience is necessary here.

at it's worst, the biggest issues seemed to have been ones that aren't particularly surprising in a city that's dominated by a weird split of both anarchists and liberals. anarchists are good at setting up initial mutual aid infrastructure, but really suck at scaling up or formalizing anything because horizontalism honestly just doesn't work as a sustainable organizing structure. horizontalism denies the ability for any kind of formal, accountable leadership to form, which in turn means that you have the formation of informal leadership cliques that are completely unaccountable to anyone else. worse, it allowed more liberal elements to take over leadership in the public eye- eliza gauger was covering this pretty in depth, arguing that some of the shootings were a direct result of liberal elements refusing to let antifascist groups remove patriot prayer people by force even after they were caught on camera harassing and assaulting people because "peaceful protest!!"

the demands weren't terrible but there definitely needed to be more coordination with other protest leaders and make things more overtly political, maybe following a model like cooperation jackson or something, and more importantly there needs to be actual organizational structures and some kind of accountable organizational democracy instead of just vague calls for horizontalism and meaningless general assemblies.

yeah indeed
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Postby Bad Craziness » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:20 pm

this shooting seems bad
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Postby loaf angel » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:55 pm

yea this story is fucked
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Postby helix krull » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:20 pm

they should’ve burned the precinct down ......
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Postby hoopdog » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:29 pm

What's the story? Also I'm reading things about private security officers that were armed within the zone? What's happening there?
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Postby Cone » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:36 pm

CHAZ/CHOP sounds like a mess and has probably done far more harm to the idea that it was intended to stand for than actually validating any cause.

And now we’ll never hear the end of it from the right...
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Postby loaf angel » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:42 pm

white "security" guard killing and injuring two black teens in the CHAZ is bad in of itself, forget how the right gloms onto it in bad faith
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Postby draw » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:58 pm

Cone wrote:CHAZ/CHOP sounds like a mess and has probably done far more harm to the idea that it was intended to stand for than actually validating any cause.

And now we’ll never hear the end of it from the right...

you'll never hear the end of it from me!
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Postby draw » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:59 pm

don't think cops should be walking around with guns, don't think untrained civilians should be walking around with guns. sorry!
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Postby grace cathedral park » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:01 pm

Cone wrote:CHAZ/CHOP sounds like a mess and has probably done far more harm to the idea that it was intended to stand for than actually validating any cause.

And now we’ll never hear the end of it from the right...


idk i think it makes a pretty good argument not to replace cops with cops
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Postby grace cathedral park » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:02 pm

so many people only know the language of policing/carceral politics that a vision of a cop-less society still replicated the police state we live in
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Postby loaf angel » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:08 pm

problem is that the reports with insistent badgering and harassment from groups like the Proud Boys. if you give up guns what stops a bunch of 2A, 3%ers from just marching in and saying that its their territory now? there was already the semi-joking online campaign calling for a bunch of gun-toting assholes to go in and reclaim the area on 7/4

its a head scratcher for sure!
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