fuck guns

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Postby Macgregor » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:55 am

big zorb wrote:Is this honestly your answer to the white supremacists have guns, they are using them to commit slaughter, and the government has no interest in halting that? Because that seems a lot more fatalistic, really and truly.

More fatalistic than statistically increasing the likelihood of fatalities under the justification/concession that nothing will ever improve?

You've acknowledged a lack of rational thought in this argument multiple times already for a reason
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Postby Bob511 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:56 am

big zorb wrote:
Bob511 wrote:
big zorb wrote:I feel like--and I recognize the irony given it is often the inverse--i am talking about the reality and other people itt are arguing ideologically

People are arguing that, if you take a gun into work Monday in order to protect yourself against the possibility of reactionary violence, the reality is you're going to do nothing but feel better about protecting yourself while making yourself and everyone around you (probably marginally, but still demonstrably) less safe, so do just about anything other than that, and dissuade just about anyone else you can to not do it either.


Is this honestly your answer to the white supremacists have guns, they are using them to commit slaughter, and the government has no interest in halting that? Because that seems a lot more fatalistic, really and truly.

My answer is that, even granting a reality in which white supremacists use guns to commit sporadic acts of targeted terroristic violence and the governmental response is largely limited to performative reproach, doing absolutely nothing more than what we already do would be a better response than encouraging more people to pack heat in public places.

I am not actually willing to grant the inevitability of a reality in which white supremacists have guns and/or the governmental response is purely ornamental, and think there's any number of boring electoral and social efforts that might possibly change either or both, or possibly fail to, but in either case, the impulse to strap on a handgun to protect against mass shootings is going to be in practice a terrible idea.
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Postby furrowed brow » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:10 am

I don't get why this would be the tipping point for people to be like, well maybe some vulnerable populations should be allowed to carry guns vs like the pervasive risk of sexual assault for women who have a 1 in 5 or so chance of being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes and basically zero effective legal avenues for justice. I haven't done the numbers but lifetime risk of being killed by a white supremacist terrorist can't be much higher than 0.1% I'd imagine, obviously this risk increases for certain populations. And, I mean, there is a built in deterrent to that stuff. Yeah Trump may not have condemned the Charlottesville terrorist, but the guy still got 400 years in prision.
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Postby furrowed brow » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:13 am

Like, the guy that did this will almost certainly be executed.
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Postby big zorb » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:16 am

I think it's because people committing sexual assault don't write manifestos about it usually so it *seems* like individual cases rather than this broad societal plague
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Postby naturemorte » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:17 am

one for the dystopia thread
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dayton daily news tweets "what we know about the el paso shooting," tweets reports of dayton mass shooting three minutes later
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Postby big zorb » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:17 am

Anyway thanks to everyone who lectured me about being reasonable in the face of literal death threats I'm out cya!!!
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Postby MikeS » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:18 am

looks like there's an active shooter at a bar in Dayton, Ohio.
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Postby furrowed brow » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:22 am

big zorb wrote:I think it's because people committing sexual assault don't write manifestos about it usually so it *seems* like individual cases rather than this broad societal plague


Yeah, I guess that just goes to show how socially ingrained rape culture is; so pervasive that we can't even see it. Apologies for painting with broad strokes, but I'd argue that the history of American cinema is functionally a manifesto about how it okay to sexually assault women (under certain conditions).
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Postby furrowed brow » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:23 am

Anyway, obviously I'm not trying to belittle anyone's fear of this stuff, I hope I don't come across that way.
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Postby bunejug » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:26 am

I would definitely feel less safe in a queer space if I knew a straight employee had a gun.
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Postby naturemorte » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:29 am

reports of eight dead in dayton, to be confirmed. ar-15 style weapon.
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Postby dusky » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:07 am

since I’ve left the states 5 days ago there’s been 3 mass shootings. really wish I didn’t ever have to go back to that stupid shithole.
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Postby Bob511 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:56 am

furrowed brow wrote:I'd argue that the history of American cinema is functionally a manifesto about how it okay to sexually assault women (under certain conditions).

Also, obviously, a century-long love letter to the effectiveness of the gun for individual protection. Love that feeling of turning into Jack Thompson in my thirties. :|

I know the post got deleted, but I guess I wanted to concede that, yeah, for whatever it's worth, communally armed protection in the face of group-directed violence is something I have a harder time with. I have no idea if armed Greenwood residents mitigated the numbers killed in the Tulsa pogrom, or how to fairly unpack the Los Angeles Korean-American experience in 1992. Obviously armed policing by unrepresentative populations is a disaster both practically and morally, and maybe it is the unrepresentative, not the armed, part that makes it especially so.

But I don't know either that circumstances like those are really comparable to the kind of threat posed by modern mass shootings, or the way an individual carrying would have to keep their firearm so immediately accessible and be willing to escalate on a dime, with all the documented collateral damage that results from that, in order to just respond at all to one, let alone respond successfully. I get that both general situations are ultimately about reclaiming agency by matching force to oppression, but the one seems a much easier call on the merits.
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Postby Kenny » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:57 am

big zorb wrote:
this nation is doomed beyond the point of being able to make it functionally harder to get guns

Yeah anybody hoping for legislative change is fooling themselves
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Postby Kenny » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:27 am

Thought better of this post
Last edited by Kenny on Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby identikit » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:01 am

Big Zorb, I feel for you. I can't imagine getting up and going to my place of work, all the while receiving threats and worrying how long it might be until a colleague will be faced with a gun. I would probably quit because I can't handle anxiety.

What you wrote reminds me of discussions we are having at home for the past couple of months. Mister identikit was advocating to own a gun, then went further that I should maybe have one at my place of work. The why he is so worried is irrelevant here (hint, Chicago South Side), but it hasn't been easy, simply because I would leave the States before I own or carry a gun.

But you work at a musuem, right? Wouldn't it be an option to try and raise funds for metal detectors and bag scanning procedures like other museums have? While that isn't a bulletproof solution (man, bad choice of words), I think it would help to some extent, plus make everyone feel more safe, employees and visitors alike.

Kenny wrote:Yeah anybody hoping for legislative change is fooling themselves

What do you propose instead of "fooling ourselves"? Roll over and give up, sit back and just go "oh well, here comes doom"? That's just silly and lazy at the same time. This country had laws where castration was punishment for homosexual activity. And not that long ago, racial segregation. Voting rights for women are only 100 years old. Will we see a legislative change in the next year? Extremely unlikely. But that doesn't mean we can't get there eventually.
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Postby identikit » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:16 am

Also I'm thankful this thread exists, as surreal as that sounds.
I went to bed while they were still counting fatalaties in El Paso, and got up to radio news about Dayton, Ohio. The process of getting Americanised works on me, I see headlines about shootings and simply move on. We don't talk about it at home or at work really, beyond a cynical "oh yea, read that, thoughts and prayers".
Occassionally the sadness and doom and helplessness still gets to me, though. This morning it does.
I listen to the radio in the kitchen while identi mini II runs out in the garden, looking what the bug house caught (it has food in it to attract bugs...), which he will present to me in a few minutes and plead that whatever creature should move into the house. Meanwhile I'm sitting here, thinking "fucking hell, I don't want to imagine what your life will look like when you are my age. Will you be dead? Armed to your teeth?"
And then I want to cry. Hey thread.
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Postby kid8 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:26 am

I don't want this to happen anymore.
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Postby mcwop23 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:38 am

at least the el paso shooting will be nothing more than a blip

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Postby Happy and Healthy! » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:45 am

Insane
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Postby Happy and Healthy! » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:45 am

I don't mean that in some insensitive way that's just mind blowing
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Postby Catullus » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:01 am

For what it’s worth, women who have a gun in the home or carry one are more likely to be murdered with said weapon than ever use it to protect themselves in case of rape. Also, way more rapes are by serial offenders than anyone previously thought now that police are being forced to test kits in certain areas. So it’s not so ‘one off’ either.

And as I have mentioned before, as someone who is now being encouraged to being a gun to my workplace, which as a school is filled with children, I really can’t think of a more counterproductive approach to school shootings and am actively terrified of some of my colleagues packing fucking heat.
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Postby Happy and Healthy! » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:09 am

Yeah that's just the worst advice possible
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Postby Shotfrog » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:18 am

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Postby Happy and Healthy! » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:26 am

I'd never seen that one
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Postby whatabout tim » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:39 am

White supremacy and racism are not “mental illnesses.”
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Postby Happy and Healthy! » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:43 am

Just some lone wolves nothin we can do truly tragic
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Postby jewels » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:53 am

My office is loaded with guns and police and I mostly feel less safe, though occasionally have a false sense of security.
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Postby mcwop23 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:58 am

Denise wrote:I'd never seen that one


yeah same
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