Journalism Thread

Let's talk Aguachile Alley

Postby adamtrask » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:53 pm

genghis sean wrote:a team of young union-skeptical white people fresh out of the ivy leagues in an operation paid for by general electric.

truly the dawning of a new media age and a new type of journalism, to be sure.


What leads you to believe that these folks are all "union-skeptical?"

Or, what do you define as "union-skeptical?"

I'm sure I could manage to scrape up pro-union arguments from nearly everyone involved in this project.

Note: This isn't a calling out. I wonder if I'm missing something important here.
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Postby The Dirty Turtle » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:56 pm

ill actually take back my choice of the word liberal in my previous post and replace it with democrat...ezra is the king of the technocrat democrat world basically
however my point was more that all those people current exist left of many policies as they exist now
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Postby genghis sean » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:19 pm

adamtrask wrote:
genghis sean wrote:a team of young union-skeptical white people fresh out of the ivy leagues in an operation paid for by general electric.

truly the dawning of a new media age and a new type of journalism, to be sure.


What leads you to believe that these folks are all "union-skeptical?"

Or, what do you define as "union-skeptical?"

I'm sure I could manage to scrape up pro-union arguments from nearly everyone involved in this project.

Note: This isn't a calling out. I wonder if I'm missing something important here.


well, I used 'union-skeptical' instead of 'anti-union'. Yglesias has written too many pieces to count where he believes he is playing Independent Arbiter by taking it to this union or that.

I quick case in point: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/201 ... wood_.html

also having followed klein for years, I don't take him to be particularly friendly to labour. it seems he and yglesias prefer redistributive schemes through the government instead of taking sides in (or even acknowledging) a battle between capital and labour.

labour unavoidably creates 'inefficiencies', it is a burden on dynamism, it slows growth and harms competitiveness (and 'competitiveness' is usually stuck in localized myopia). the point, the left-leaning technocrat believes, is to grow that pie, maximize wealth and the tax base. avoid ideology, emphasize class collaboration and corporatism (in the classical definition of the word, not the misapplied, vulgarized one). its a centrism that wishes to ignore the dialectic between money and power almost entirely. your heart bleeds for those stuck in poverty, and maybe there is a policy paper you can cook up to lower a few points here and there, but the last thing you would want to do is redistribute power (again, inefficient at best, wayward and dangerous at worst). this is the worldview, and one embraced by a younger generation who has never really even seen the face of emancipatory politics during their entire lifetimes anyways. vox is the voice of elite progressives as molded and shaped by elite institutions.

this is why general electric signs off on this. they're certainly not dangerous to general electric in anyway. and, quite depressingly, to a lot of 'liberals' who identify, or blindly identity, with this worldview, there is little reason to understand why this would even be a bad thing, why they wouldn't want to take GE's money.
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Postby genghis sean » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:37 pm

and that video is a pretty perfect realization of their worldview:

'the problem' is that people don't understand policy well enough, they believe, because the issues aren't being explained by the figures on media mount olympus well enough to the people who feel dumb for not being on top of as many technocratic details as possible. 'the problem' - and this is pretty indicative liberal trait that spans back to the mid-19th century - is that there needs to be 'more education'. education will be our salvation. knowing and then being able to engage is the golden ticket.

what the labour movement intuitively understood, or even the most mainstream of liberals in the 40s and even the 60s understood, is that people's lives are shaped by the economic reality, and the economic reality isn't created nor sustained through A Congress of Ideas. it takes mobilization, organization, non-electoral engagement. it takes 'unreasonable demands' and even conflict. and that's the reason why - as its so often pointed out - that richard nixon was the last liberal president. because the left had consolidated a certain amount of power that he had to placate. but the nature of the next 40 years of political economy has meant that there has been an erosion of this consolidation, and quite sadly, the liberal base has forgotten these lessons as it has naturally drifted in age. the young (and I'm including anyone younger than 50 in this, at least) have grown up in a 'post-political' world.

the vox crew seems as indicative of this reality as any, so I'll continue to maintain my skepticism. luckily it seems many liberals are beginning to, or have already come to this realization. the fact that Reed gets the cover story on Harper's is itself indicative of this shift.
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Postby husbands » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:42 pm

In general I like the kind of journalism that this thread is about. Ever since politicians essentially stopped communicating factual information in interviews and press conferences, there's been a need for some empirical evaluation of what policies are actually doing. I totally agree with critics of the new wonkblog like this: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... e-wonkblog

But at the same time, self professed wonks can have even stronger blinders on than the old school "he said she said" journalists. They are totally committed to the things Sean is talking about and implicitly dismiss any populist or radical ideas that lack preexisting empirical evidence. There's also a sort of patronizing elitism to this kind of journalism that was less visible in the older tradition. If democratic journalism is going to improve citizen participation and engagement, we need compelling narratives about good ideas, not Dylan Matthews tweeting NBER links. Wonkblog/538/Vox are obviously better than CNN, MSNBC, or other empty bullshit entertainment providers because they package useful information in entertaining ways. But ideas like Vox's one master page that will provide all context on a given issue makes me worried about those blinders.

Also, I think someone like Robert Costa is doing the more narrative kind of journalism well but I realize that few people read him and he isn't gonna fix the GOP anytime soon
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Postby husbands » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:48 am

http://sanseverything.wordpress.com/201 ... eneration/

sean if you haven't read this you might like it
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Postby WAC » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:02 am

I wish Jeet Heer wrote more
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Postby The Dirty Turtle » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:03 am

Ferrous Bueller wrote:
The Dirty Turtle wrote:im nervous about and ready to hate this thing based on the degree to which ezras been willing to embrace the worst tendencies of social media
but at the same time, all these people are liberal, and if this thing becomes a ubiquitous, fine...there is no conservative talent pool that could respond to this if they do it right

i hope its good


what would ubiquitous look like in this case?


its gonna be ugly
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Postby husbands » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:33 pm

ROLL COAL
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Postby husbands » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:35 pm

WAC wrote:I wish Jeet Heer wrote more


me too

he is the only writer I know of who is an expert on both the homoerotic subtext of straussian political theory (he had an excellent 30+ tweet series on this last night) and krazy kat, among other things
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Postby WAC » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:12 pm

Every so often I'll bug him on Twitter to update more and he says he will eventually but I think he might still be working on his doctoral thesis.
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Postby husbands » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:15 pm

he should give that up and try and get a writing job

the academic market for history phds from canadian universities is probably worse
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Postby powderfinger » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:57 pm

Oh cool, hadn't seen that Timothy Lee was going to Vox too. I like him.
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Postby husbands » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:05 pm

ah apparently jeet heer is coming out with a book of essays called Sweet Lechery: Essays, Reviews & Profiles
"Still working on Table of Contents but Sweet Lechery will discuss: Keynes, Leo Strauss, Philip K. Dick, Alice Munro, Atwood, Jesus, Van Gogh"
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Postby JUGLIFE » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:25 pm

best part of the bitcoin thing is the internet asking me to pick a side between tech shithead and policy shitheads
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Postby husbands » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:40 am

Image
come at me vox
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Postby husbands » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:03 pm

Remaking journalism in its own image, only with better hair and tighter clothes, is not a revolution, or even an evolution. It is a repackaging of the status quo with a very nice clubhouse attached. A revolution calls for a regime change of more significant depth.

from: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ate-silver

this is not a great op-ed but does have a point
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Postby genghis sean » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:42 pm

It is as if Arianna Huffington never happened.


oof

this diversity problem that we see reflected here is more the symptom of the problem than the problem itself.

I don't think its surprising that fresh faced middle/upper-middle/elite kids who are graduates of ivy league schools and are otherwise doing pretty alright with their successful careers are much more likely to orient themselves to a worldview where the foundations of society are fundamentally sound, there just needs to be a few renovations here and there. they aren't republicans or reactionaries because they can readily identify these positions with irrationality. but they have a stake in the status quo, and their appeal is to people much like themselves.

the radical press and intelligentsia is significantly more diversified: more women, more minorities, more immigrants and definitely more LGBT people. it makes a certain type of sense it would be this way, I'd have to think. those more likely to be excluded or on the shit end of the stick are more likely to find fault with society. I would suggest their criticisms are well founded but easily ignored by the lofty vox world of things.
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Postby powderfinger » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:59 pm

at what point is it ok for a white guy with strong feminist inclinations, such as myself, to start getting very irritated at "white man" as a derogatory term and the genre of "____ is a white man, UGH" commentary without slipping into neckbeard MRA territory

because I have been struggling with this lately
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Postby genghis sean » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:07 pm

well, what is the real problem - that white men seem to dominate certain arenas or fields, or that critics of this are given to using "white men" as a derogatory term? are white males uniquely qualified and likely to 'do the right things' to land such positions for themselves?

nobody is trying to shut you up. they just think others should have voices as well.

you're allowed to be a good bro and participate. I know "white man" naturally encompasses you and me as well, but consider where this is actually directed. I think we're ok enough to take this on the chin.
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Postby husbands » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:17 pm

I prefer to use the terms "privileged white men" or "rich white men" when I am describing such groups because it is more precise

sure "white men" on average are priviliged enough to 'take this on the chin' but lazy generalities are in no one's interest

this for example is kinda lazy
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Postby genghis sean » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:24 pm

sure. I just find it a bit funny that the most sensitive to being singled out or referred to by their identity are white males. maybe because they aren't used to it at all?

I'm not calling you out specifically powderfinger. I'm under the impression you're a good guy/poster.
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Postby powderfinger » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:30 pm

genghis sean wrote:well, what is the real problem - that white men seem to dominate certain arenas or fields, or that critics of this are given to using "white men" as a derogatory term? are white males uniquely qualified and likely to 'do the right things' to land such positions for themselves?

nobody is trying to shut you up. they just think others should have voices as well.

you're allowed to be a good bro and participate. I know "white man" naturally encompasses you and me as well, but consider where this is actually directed. I think we're ok enough to take this on the chin.


I think "where this is actually directed" is key though. What I'm talking about is this culture of vaguely calling into question the success of actual, identifiable white men. It just seems really unfair to me to vaguely assign a gender valence to (and therefore call into question) the success of Ezra Klein and Nate Silver when their careers exist mostly outside of the problematic gender politics of legacy media. They built an audience/brand before they did stints with their respective papers.
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Postby genghis sean » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:39 pm

right, which is why I say they aren't the problem but rather the symptom of the problem.

everybody knows that Ezra Klein or Nate Silver aren't going to be muzzled because someone wrote an op-ed. they will maintain their privileged position regardless.

I mean, its not like if you have 'privilege' (a term I prefer to avoid because I have a huge list of criticisms of this type of politics myself) its because its just been handed to you. clearly Silver and Klein 'beat out' a ton of other white male middle-class-or-up ivy league graduates to get their position in life. it did come with hard work. but this hard work, talent and 'earned' success masks the larger sociological reality. 'privilege' is often more a reflection of the absence of barriers, barriers that trip up or prevent other people from advancing, than it is of someone giving you a bonus cookie.

this is why 'white male privilege' is a tough thing to talk about amongst privileged white males. like the average white guy can't really recall the time anyone has given them an extra leg up, or said to them "we're going to go with you because we like your maleness, and especially your whiteness as well!". plenty of 'privileged white males' actually have very good reason to believe they haven't been all that privileged by anyone else or have extra social capital. but they also don't realize how easy their interaction was with the cop when they were pulled over for speeding, or how quickly they become 'one of the boys' at their company's golf event.
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Postby saranclaps ultra mode 9000 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:09 pm

delgriffith wrote:Quick Google search reveals that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
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Postby WAC » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:38 pm

That op-ed also hits Silver for "gleefully" posting his new hires on his website. I have no point to make here, but apparently he's supposed to not mention hiring people or do it extremely solemnly.
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Postby JUGLIFE » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:57 pm

yeah i dunno vox sounds like some dogshit lmao
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Postby WAC » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:37 pm

saranclaps wrote:http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/03/12 ... gay/198461

Sounds wonderful.


Yikes
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Postby WAC » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:42 pm

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Postby The Dirty Turtle » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:08 pm

nate is like openly libertarian isnt he
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