ISRAEL/PALESTINE: THE THREAD

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Postby internethandle » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:24 pm

i think the board has a history of overreacting when called out for its potential blind spots and that junebug is probably more equipped to see the potential for this particular one as an israeli american
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Postby mystery meat » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:31 pm

definitely true
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Postby Jimmy Firecracker » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:33 pm

mystery meat wrote:
def from above wrote:you dont think we should separate ourselves from (even unwitting) anti-semitism in all contexts?

i mean, there is Israel as the fucked up country and govt that we know it to actually be. and there is Israel as anti-semites falsely present it (global puppetmaster shit) to stoke anti-semitic hatred and conspiracy-mongering and evil (and insofar as leftism can and does overlap with antisemitism, there is a lot of in-between here). the latter characterization should be incinerated. i don't think that all unqualified expressions of anger towards Israel should be assumed the latter until proven the former, and i think there's ways of acknowledging the frightening extent to which anti-semites have shaped discourse about Israel and proactively dissociating from and formulating stratagems for combating it, while also being able to maintain spaces where Israel can be talked about as Bad from the implicit standpoint of anti-racism/human rights/leftism and not have to continuously be asterisking that perspective as 'not anti-semitic' in a way that inadvertently perpetuates anti-semitism as even being a 'side' or a 'position' when it should have zero currency whatsoever in the marketplace of ideas.


sorry but i just see a lot of your post as the equivalent of thinking that racism against POC is using the N word
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Postby Jimmy Firecracker » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:34 pm

there is antisemitism beyond zionist conspiracy theories and holocaust denial
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Postby def from above » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:34 pm

mystery meat wrote:
def from above wrote: there is Israel as anti-semites falsely present it (global puppetmaster shit) to stoke anti-semitic hatred and conspiracy-mongering and evil (and insofar as leftism can and does overlap with antisemitism, there is a lot of in-between here). the latter characterization should be incinerated. i don't think that all unqualified expressions of anger towards Israel should be assumed the latter until proven the former


do you honestly think anti-semitism only exists in the form of "jews run hollywood/the media/the banks"?

edit: what Jimmy said
What had happen was...
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Postby mystery meat » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:43 pm

no not at all, i'm talking about how Israel as a geopolitical entity (i.e. thread title/topic) is largely depicted from an anti-semitic pov (the same pov that junebug explicitly made note of last page ("homogeneous evil")), not that such a depiction/characterization is the full extent of anti-semitism, which obviously operates far more subtly, prodigiously, complexly than just elders of zion
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Postby mystery meat » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:45 pm

i'm just bad at articulating thoughts itt
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Postby def from above » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:56 pm

mystery meat wrote:no not at all, i'm talking about how Israel as a geopolitical entity (i.e. thread title/topic) is largely depicted from an anti-semitic pov (the same pov that junebug explicitly made note of last page ("homogeneous evil")), not that such a depiction/characterization is the full extent of anti-semitism, which obviously operates far more subtly, prodigiously, complexly than just elders of zion


right. just like when criticism of Israel's 'fucked up govt' smuggles in unintended(?) tropes or language that is itself antisemitic and encourages suspicion of the very existence of sovereign jewish society in that part of the world. your post that jimmy and i responded to didnt represent that possibility. and (I should add) it's not just a possibility but a prominent trend in a lot of leftist criticism.
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Postby def from above » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:58 pm

mystery meat wrote:i'm just bad at articulating thoughts itt


it's cool. you clarified later.
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Postby mystery meat » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:12 pm

yeah i agree with that and that when it comes to charges of anti-semitism, the reflex for the left is to discount them all as coming from the same place of disingenousness designed to defuse all criticism of the Israeli govt, whereas obviously many of those charges are valid and leftists are as susceptible to anti-semitism, racism, misogyny, etc. as anyone. i think taking each charge seriously and constant self-interrogation on this front is important. i know junebug is coming from a constructive place here and i was too cavalier and dismissive earlier.
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Postby mystery meat » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:26 pm

and i think it's a necessary point that hipinion isn't so cohesive and same-page that we can all comfortably assume all blanket rage at Israel is coming from the same morally pure leftism without even the suggestion of (or adjacency to) anti-semitism (because along a lot of other axes it's clear there are still a lot of reactionary and problematic perspectives on this board), and i think my above posts were making the mistake of assuming more of an ideological insularity here than is actually the case.

i am legit am extremely interested in the best way to have responsible discourse about Israel and i appreciate all the pushback to my dumb posts.
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Postby internethandle » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:50 pm

mystery meat wrote:and i think it's a necessary point that hipinion isn't so cohesive and same-page that we can all comfortably assume all blanket rage at Israel is coming from the same morally pure leftism without even the suggestion of (or adjacency to) anti-semitism (because along a lot of other axes it's clear there are still a lot of reactionary and problematic perspectives on this board)


yeah, this is really the only point i was trying to stress. thanks for articulating it more thoroughly than i was able to. i certainly can relate to feeling weary of, outside of a space like this, being unable to bring up israeli government abuses without getting shouted down or having to tread very lightly.
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Postby deadbass » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:00 pm

accidentally misread the new thread title as "Bibi still likes ducks." :oops:
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Postby palmer eldritch » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:02 pm

it sounds like changing the thread title achieved peace in the middle east. thank you brave moderators.
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Postby big zorb » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:05 pm

you're welcome.
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Postby joe » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:07 pm

it's not 1996, but bibi still lickin on dicks (was approximately how i originally read the thread title)
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Postby dr. badvibes » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:13 pm

'Bibi' is a diminutive pet name and using such in a permanent thread title carries positive connotations. for an evil man, simply use his full last name, and don't flirt with best dude-ing him. we'd have all puked together posting in a 'POTUS Donnie' thread

when people use a cute nickname in a single post it's different, because of the ephemeral nature of 1 post
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Postby surly » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:47 pm

you can only fit so many characters in a thread title
lordofdiapers wrote:damn it Greedo will forever fuck that word for me
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Postby Jimmy Firecracker » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:48 pm

quit normalizing Bibi, surly!
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Postby dr. badvibes » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:58 pm

Likud Snake and the Shame of Moses Incident
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Postby clouds » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:58 pm

u evil bb?
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Postby internethandle » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:00 pm

can it be in all caps again pls thx
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Postby Guffaw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:18 am

def from above wrote:just like when criticism of Israel's 'fucked up govt' smuggles in unintended(?) tropes or language that is itself antisemitic and encourages suspicion of the very existence of sovereign jewish society in that part of the world.


Excuse me? Being against the existence of Israel is not antisemitic. That’s blatant conflation of anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. By definition, a ‘sovereign Jewish society in that part of the world’ is a racist endeavour which requires the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population, so of course any leftist should be ‘suspicious’ of it. Many Jews do not support such a thing.

Title change is pathetic and sad. Hipinion, like most of the English-speaking ‘left’ continues to be clueless about Israel and marginalise all critics of it. I supported a change of title, but to something more critical of Israel, not a cop out. Like ‘BREAKING: ISRAEL STILL FUNDAMENTALLY A FASCIST THEOCRATIC COLONIAL ETHNOSTATE FOUNDED BY TERRORISM AND GENOCIDE’
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Postby deep blue meanies » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:22 am

free Palestine
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Postby Kenny » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:53 am

I didn't mean to ask for a thread title as a wedge to shut down discussion. I am very much for a free palestine and anti-colonization and think the Israeli government is terrible, and I think this thread is a really good read and I think it's good to stay aware of the shitty problems that are happening in Israel.

I just thought the thread, by Totally being in caps and being sarcastic about how Israel as a whole are dicks (and that it's no surprise!!!) was getting a little old and if you read the first few pages of the thread I don't really think this thread got to be about good faith discussion for quite a while.

Totally's second post itt:
Totally wrote:TALK ABOUT A DIVISION OF JOY...



I'm not going to be pushing for anything else to change about the thread but the thread title was dated and I'm not coming for guns or the bible next
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Postby Hoxha » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:21 am

This board is beyond parody at this point.
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Postby Guffaw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:03 am

This board always complains about how the Democrats are milquetoast centrists, and chuck schumer’s support of Israel etc.

Then you censor ‘ISRAEL ARE DICKS’ because it’s offensive to the brave people of Israel or whatever

Ocasio-Cortez’s capitulation showed that when it comes to foreign policy, there is no ‘American left’. The only place you can defend Palestinians without being ostracised from the community in America is neo-nazi forums (ironically where netanyahu’s son gets his memes).

The first few pages of this thread...didn’t mites apologise for his posts? Didn’t want to be on the bad side of the board zionists I suppose.

Petty will probably vote Tory (or green!) once Corbyn has been labelled an anti-Semite enough.

Americans continue to be so brainfucked as a people it’s impossible to communicate with them about Israel.

The board’s ‘leftists’ continue to be a circus of moral weaklings
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Postby Guffaw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:07 am

Are supporters of BDS welcome on this forum? After all, it’s a boycott of the state of Israel, not Netanyahu/Likud. Per new board policy, it is therefore anti-Semitic.
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Postby Kenny » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:16 am

Woah, a whole field of strawmen
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Postby Kenny » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:19 am

totally named this thread
totally has a history of delivering premium board reactionary content
totally's second post in this thread is a joke about Nazi concentration camps which kept Jewish women for being raped by Nazis
Thread title change request: CENSORSHIP
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