borderline

Health insurance rip off lying FDA big bankers buying
Fake computer crashes dining
Cloning while they're multiplying
Fashion shoots with Beck and Hanson
Courtney Love, and Marilyn Manson
You're all fakes
Run to your mansions
Come around
We'll kick your ass in

Postby elaine » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:56 am

i love that song, i don't have much problems with the bpd people i know, with one kinda but eventually i always manage to fix that too, takes a whole lot of patience and you've to really know what's going on in communication, i don't have any advice or anything, it's all individual specific
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Postby Tai-Pan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:05 am

black mamba wrote:after reading some literature and thinking about it tbh i can see some times in my life where i exhibited features of this disorder. not at all at the degree that we're talking about itt but in type. like it's definitely not a random bundle of symptoms; there is a logic to it imo. i think that because we don't have a word for it like 'anxiety' or 'depression' it's hard recognize it as a thing and all the gradients of it but that's just my amateur opinion. and it should definitely not be stigmatized because it seems general education would be really helpful


Interesting... I work in the field of mental health and frequently work with PDs, generally BPD and ASPD (borderline + antisocial) and this is an unusual view. First, its' not really fair to compare it to anxiety and depression since those are categorized as 'mental illness' and what we are talking about are personality disorders, which are much more behavioral and interpersonal in their presentation and it's at this level that we see the 'clinically significant functional impairments' and also where treatment begins. whereas depression and anxiety - i believe - are absolutely "bundles of symptoms" and more 'organic' in nature i.e., medication is often the first line of treatment followed by therapy. someone with a dx of depression can variously struggle with symptoms such as amotivation, isolation, cognitive distortions, lethargy, anhedonia, helplessness, hopelessness, suicidality, anger, mood instability, negative self-image, etc.

I don't mean to come across as trying to challenge you, but I have often found that there is profound misunderstanding out there with regard to mental health (duh), but especially so with personality disorders... even within the field of mental health (almost more so at times... yikes!)
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Postby elaine » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:46 am

Tai-Pan wrote:
black mamba wrote:after reading some literature and thinking about it tbh i can see some times in my life where i exhibited features of this disorder. not at all at the degree that we're talking about itt but in type. like it's definitely not a random bundle of symptoms; there is a logic to it imo. i think that because we don't have a word for it like 'anxiety' or 'depression' it's hard recognize it as a thing and all the gradients of it but that's just my amateur opinion. and it should definitely not be stigmatized because it seems general education would be really helpful


Interesting... I work in the field of mental health and frequently work with PDs, generally BPD and ASPD (borderline + antisocial) and this is an unusual view. First, its' not really fair to compare it to anxiety and depression since those are categorized as 'mental illness' and what we are talking about are personality disorders, which are much more behavioral and interpersonal in their presentation and it's at this level that we see the 'clinically significant functional impairments' and also where treatment begins. whereas depression and anxiety - i believe - are absolutely "bundles of symptoms" and more 'organic' in nature i.e., medication is often the first line of treatment followed by therapy. someone with a dx of depression can variously struggle with symptoms such as amotivation, isolation, cognitive distortions, lethargy, anhedonia, helplessness, hopelessness, suicidality, anger, mood instability, negative self-image, etc.

I don't mean to come across as trying to challenge you, but I have often found that there is profound misunderstanding out there with regard to mental health (duh), but especially so with personality disorders... even within the field of mental health (almost more so at times... yikes!)


Well the field of psychology is a profound misunderstanding in itself, instead of focusing on helping people in the best way possible, the main focus is still the creation of these images for people to identify with, called diagnosis, which is supposed to be a tool that can create some kind of structure to be able to provide help. But instead people are being forced to take on these roles so they can get categorized into groups, and then identification occurs. Since human beings learn by imitation, mimesis creates this false reality of mental illness images we now have learned to live by.
Personality disorders are still fairly new, so unlike depression and anxiety they haven't fully become a part of our culture yet, but they will and then they'll also be a bundle of symptoms for people to identify with.

I'm not trying to deny the reality of experience by claiming what I just said, what people go through is real because we let it become real, we don't look for what's causing these real experiences so they can be altered in a way that doesn't just create more suffering through the act of putting names on experience, we give them the right to exist as they occur right now, which is a very bad thing to do cause by doing that the individual is held responsible for what's wrong in our culture, everything stays wrong that way.

There should be general education, but not about what these diagnosis are, cause then we only educate people to identify with them, which everyone can do since all the symptoms are just descriptions of human experience, everyone is capable of identifying with certain mental illnesses but nobody should ever have to do that.
What we should educate people on is what all these images of mental illnesses mean for our culture, altering culture is altering experience, what we communicate is what we become, and our communication is shit.
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Postby Tai-Pan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:03 am

"instead of focusing on helping people in the best way possible, the main focus is still the creation of these images for people to identify with, called diagnosis, which is supposed to be a tool that can create some kind of structure to be able to provide help."

how do you suggest help be provided then? i don't disagree that our current DSM model of diagnosis is flawed, but that doesn't mean its unhelpful. we just dont have a better system. there's no 'biomedical model' for diagnosing mental health; no MRI, bloodwork, CT scan, etc... yet. but research is well underway to hopefully get there. but diagnostic challenges aside, mental illness is real and there are real interventions and treatment options which help. i guess i'm not really following what you're conveying here. do you mean to say the field of psychology is culpable for the stigmatization of mental illness?
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Postby elaine » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:22 am

Tai-Pan wrote:"instead of focusing on helping people in the best way possible, the main focus is still the creation of these images for people to identify with, called diagnosis, which is supposed to be a tool that can create some kind of structure to be able to provide help."

how do you suggest help be provided then? i don't disagree that our current DSM model of diagnosis is flawed, but that doesn't mean its unhelpful. we just dont have a better system. there's no 'biomedical model' for diagnosing mental health; no MRI, bloodwork, CT scan, etc... yet. but research is well underway to hopefully get there. but diagnostic challenges aside, mental illness is real and there are real interventions and treatment options which help. i guess i'm not really following what you're conveying here. do you mean to say the field of psychology of mental illness is culpable for the stigmatization of mental illness?


pretty much, the dsm model is unhelpful and it's a true evil, every monolopy is cause it creates a reality people are forced to experience, just like you just accept that the dsm model is helpful cause you have no idea what kind of possibilities of alternative help there even are, you can't see beyond this reality of diagnosis.
I already suggested how help should be provided, by making this reality transparent so people do not have to suffer individually but can actually realise where suffering comes from, not from individual experience but from the state of the human condition.
Try looking at it like this, humanity is this machine, every person in it is a little part that makes that machine function, the machine is not working as it should and parts are just breaking, mental illness is trying to fix those parts with the wrong tool and the machine is still not working as it should, so more and more parts are breaking while none are being properly fixed. So the options are, shut down the machine and use the parts to build a new one that actually works, or to find a tool that can fix the parts.

I'm not gonna write out my actual ideas for a new system on this forum, just know that people are working on new systems for different realities, paradigms don't just shift, they slowly develop and thats why you don't notice that this reality is only a fabrication, it's fine to go along with it but you don't have to believe in it, you can do a whole lot of harm that way
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Postby elaine » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:35 am

Awww, basically what i'm saying comes down to this, thinking ahead and seeing possibilities for a better future is very good for your mental health, and the more people that do it, the more chance there is that the world can become better than this, waiting on things to change while only trying to fix what's already completely broken, is not helpful at all, but still thank you for helping people right now, keep trying to help people.
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Postby an otter » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:36 am

gonna be hard to sell your culturally holistic perspective on mental illness to people who legit would die without their medication and are thankful for being diagnosed so they know where to start with help, elaine.
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Postby elaine » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:40 am

i'm not selling it to people, i don't sell anything to people, everything i do i do for free, cause my will is to help, what you're saying is not an arguement, it's an excuse for your own deception, don't address that to me, it wont be of any help to you
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Postby elaine » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:46 am

help isn't a product, to help is to be human, by thinking it is a product you sell yourself, i hope you may find out who bought you
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Postby elaine » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:53 am

aw it's not that important right now, only thing i want to really say in this thread is, don't ever give up on people because of what you have learned to call them, take as much time off as you need when it gets too hard in the moment, but don't ever give up on people because of what you have learned to call them
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Postby an otter » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:21 am

i was using the word sell like convince people to adopt, and i don't think anybody's suggesting diagnosis is a replacement for compassion/acceptance, but your response gave me my answer i guess
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Postby elaine » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:28 am

you did not ask me a question, i did not give you an answer, i know how you used the word sell, i know how i used the word sell, i don't think anybody's suggesting anything at all but maybe somebody should cause anybody could
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Postby Tai-Pan » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:13 pm

I appreciate both elaine's and an otter's responses! I love talking mental health!

I find the capacity to have compassion for those suffering is quite independent of any clinical acumen or diagnostic ability. But, ones ability to treat those who are suffering from mental illness absolutely is... again, in my personal and professional experience. Elaine, I don't mean to sounds like an ass, but I have a few questions as I am genuinely curious about your take and where it sprung from:

1. have you been exposed to - either yourself or someone close to you - the process of seeking out 'established' mental health services i.e., therapy/psychology/psychiatry which came from within the framework of the currently accepted model of mental health aka the DSM, evidence based practices, and psychopharmacology?

2. can you link or connect me to any type of research which can help shed light on your position? Would you say you are in some way connected to the 'anti-psychiatry' movement?

3. Are you familiar with trauma-informed practices?
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Postby Jimmy Firecracker » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:18 pm

elaine wrote:Awww, basically what i'm saying comes down to this, thinking ahead and seeing possibilities for a better future is very good for your mental health, and the more people that do it, the more chance there is that the world can become better than this, waiting on things to change while only trying to fix what's already completely broken, is not helpful at all, but still thank you for helping people right now, keep trying to help people.


can you accept the idea that the DSM model can both be incredibly beneficial and harmful simultaneously?
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Postby elaine » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:21 am

Tai-Pan wrote:I appreciate both elaine's and an otter's responses! I love talking mental health!

I find the capacity to have compassion for those suffering is quite independent of any clinical acumen or diagnostic ability. But, ones ability to treat those who are suffering from mental illness absolutely is... again, in my personal and professional experience. Elaine, I don't mean to sounds like an ass, but I have a few questions as I am genuinely curious about your take and where it sprung from:

1. have you been exposed to - either yourself or someone close to you - the process of seeking out 'established' mental health services i.e., therapy/psychology/psychiatry which came from within the framework of the currently accepted model of mental health aka the DSM, evidence based practices, and psychopharmacology?

2. can you link or connect me to any type of research which can help shed light on your position? Would you say you are in some way connected to the 'anti-psychiatry' movement?

3. Are you familiar with trauma-informed practices?


I've a clinical psychology degree and i'm trying to figure out what I want to do with it, but this year i'm first dealing with my own traumas, and finding a new vision to live by, which feels like an old vision atm, it's funny though cause i've really gotten into eastern philosophy, which western psychology has also been trying to do, and I believe there're a lot of oppurtunities to find there, which I'm just now beginning to see.
I am sort of connected to the anti psychiatry movement, but I'm Belgian so it's just limited to Belgium, and the situation is a little different here. I'm also studying complex trauma and interpersonal communication, so yeah i'm familiar with trauma-informed practices, just theoretically though, no personal experience.

I can try to find some research, haven't really been following much lately but i'll look into it next week, when i've some time.
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Postby elaine » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:38 am

Jimmy Firecracker wrote:
elaine wrote:Awww, basically what i'm saying comes down to this, thinking ahead and seeing possibilities for a better future is very good for your mental health, and the more people that do it, the more chance there is that the world can become better than this, waiting on things to change while only trying to fix what's already completely broken, is not helpful at all, but still thank you for helping people right now, keep trying to help people.


can you accept the idea that the DSM model can both be incredibly beneficial and harmful simultaneously?


temporarily i could accept that but i don't see any real benefits though, people are forced to get diagnosed so they can get help, and to have an accepted reason to stay home from work whatever, what're the benefits of that? if you can't function in this society, you're "mentally ill", so this society makes people "mentally ill" and the dsm solution is just to make them function in this society again, while the pharmaceutical industry takes advantage of that to make money by drugging everyone.
The dsm can be useful though, if whoever uses it knows how to use it for the people, and not against them, but the way education is right now, we're being taught to use it against them.
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Postby elaine » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:44 am

Just the fact that the number of diagnosis is going up every year should be enough of an indication that this isn't helping at all, there aren't more diagnosis cause more people are becoming mentally ill, they're all just getting more diagnosed, everyone's on a waiting list to get help.

I do believe there's a future in trauma treatment though, instead of dividing humanity into seperate categories of mental illness images, the idea of trauma is a much better perspective on this situation, cause it communicates what people are suffering from, and not what they're suffering with. Trauma is still mainly limited to focusing on specific experiences, but the definition of it is slowly changing and I can see a future in that.
Last edited by elaine on Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby furrowed brow » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:00 am

black mamba wrote:after reading some literature and thinking about it tbh i can see some times in my life where i exhibited features of this disorder. not at all at the degree that we're talking about itt but in type. like it's definitely not a random bundle of symptoms; there is a logic to it imo. i think that because we don't have a word for it like 'anxiety' or 'depression' it's hard recognize it as a thing and all the gradients of it but that's just my amateur opinion. and it should definitely not be stigmatized because it seems general education would be really helpful


What would you say is the logic?

There are times when my emotions feel so strong that I could see myself doing shitty stuff to people. Luckily, they aren't like that consistently.
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Postby furrowed brow » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:02 am

My only experience with it is from having done a little DBT myself which was developed I think mainly with BPD in mind.
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Postby elaine » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:04 am

furrowed brow wrote:
black mamba wrote:after reading some literature and thinking about it tbh i can see some times in my life where i exhibited features of this disorder. not at all at the degree that we're talking about itt but in type. like it's definitely not a random bundle of symptoms; there is a logic to it imo. i think that because we don't have a word for it like 'anxiety' or 'depression' it's hard recognize it as a thing and all the gradients of it but that's just my amateur opinion. and it should definitely not be stigmatized because it seems general education would be really helpful


What would you say is the logic?

There are times when my emotions feel so strong that I could see myself doing shitty stuff to people. Luckily, they aren't like that consistently.


I'd say the logic in it, is that they reveal there's something severely wrong with how we communicate, like for example your emotions feel so strong and i suppose you've no clue why, and that's probably cause you've no clue how to communicate these feelings in a way that can help you deal with them, so they deal with you and you suffer from them
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Postby elaine » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:05 am

DBT is focused on teaching people how they can communicate
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Postby furrowed brow » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:06 am

elaine wrote:people are forced to get diagnosed so they can get help, and to have an accepted reason to stay home from work whatever, what're the benefits of that?


Well, they might get therapy that helps them. Also, sometimes my mental illness (not to equivocate "mental illness" with "personality disorders", idk the terms really) has made me want to stay home from work, would be nice for that to be medically validated sometimes!
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Postby furrowed brow » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:07 am

elaine wrote:
furrowed brow wrote:
black mamba wrote:after reading some literature and thinking about it tbh i can see some times in my life where i exhibited features of this disorder. not at all at the degree that we're talking about itt but in type. like it's definitely not a random bundle of symptoms; there is a logic to it imo. i think that because we don't have a word for it like 'anxiety' or 'depression' it's hard recognize it as a thing and all the gradients of it but that's just my amateur opinion. and it should definitely not be stigmatized because it seems general education would be really helpful


What would you say is the logic?

There are times when my emotions feel so strong that I could see myself doing shitty stuff to people. Luckily, they aren't like that consistently.


I'd say the logic in it, is that they reveal there's something severely wrong with how we communicate, like for example your emotions feel so strong and i suppose you've no clue why, and that's probably cause you've no clue how to communicate these feelings in a way that can help you deal with them, so they deal with you and you suffer from them


Yeah, that gels with my experience, limited as it is.
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Postby furrowed brow » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:08 am

And, in my experience, even just one on one talk therapy can help communication.
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Postby furrowed brow » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:09 am

With the right person, of course. And it can be hard to have that overlap with what insurance will cover.
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Postby elaine » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:09 am

furrowed brow wrote:
elaine wrote:people are forced to get diagnosed so they can get help, and to have an accepted reason to stay home from work whatever, what're the benefits of that?


Well, they might get therapy that helps them. Also, sometimes my mental illness (not to equivocate "mental illness" with "personality disorders", idk the terms really) has made me want to stay home from work, would be nice for that to be medically validated sometimes!


well ye, but you're forced to need medical validation, but whats medical validation, it just communicates that there's something wrong with you that has to be fixed by something else, medicines or therapy, they're products we're taught to consume.
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Postby elaine » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:10 am

furrowed brow wrote:And, in my experience, even just one on one talk therapy can help communication.


uhu, therapy you actually communicate with a person, and that helps, i support therapy, i just don't support how we're taught to look at it, like we need therapy to get better, but actually we just need to communicate to get better, we can learn that in therapy but we can learn that everywhere, if we just don't expect it can only be done through therapy
Last edited by elaine on Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby furrowed brow » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:11 am

elaine wrote:well ye, but you're forced to need medical validation, but whats medical validation, it just communicates that there's something wrong with you that has to be fixed by something else, medicines or therapy, they're products we're taught to consume.


Yeah, but sometimes they're really helpful.

But I can understand how some might take a BPD diagnosis as something being "wrong" with them, which I can imagine is spiritually detrimental.
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Postby furrowed brow » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:11 am

elaine wrote:
furrowed brow wrote:And, in my experience, even just one on one talk therapy can help communication.


uhu, therapy you actually communicate with a person, and that helps, i support therapy, i just don't support how we're taught to look at it, like we need therapy to get better, but actually we just need to communicate to get better


sure, I agree.
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Postby elaine » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:17 am

furrowed brow wrote:
elaine wrote:well ye, but you're forced to need medical validation, but whats medical validation, it just communicates that there's something wrong with you that has to be fixed by something else, medicines or therapy, they're products we're taught to consume.


Yeah, but sometimes they're really helpful.

But I can understand how some might take a BPD diagnosis as something being "wrong" with them, which I can imagine is spiritually detrimental.


ye, a lot of people are just ashamed of their diagnosis and keep it for themselves, you'd be surprised how many people have something but are too ashamed to say, and the ones that do say get stigmatized, both those things are not good for a person's spirit
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