fuck guns

'Cause I've been postin' and laughin' so long
That even my momma thinks that my mind is gone

Postby draw » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:58 pm

also 2/3's of gun deaths are suicide
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Postby big zorb » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:59 pm

As I said to easy, i agree with you in theory bob, and my bad about the post at the top. But i do empathize with people who have concluded otherwise and honestly i wonder if there are actually other options or if we don't want to face the reality of no coming gun legislation and an increasingly mobilized white supremacist violent reality.
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Postby draw » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:20 pm

There are a lot options for solving the social problem of gun violence because the underlying causes are heterogeneous, some combination of drug legalization & increased funding/attention to mental health. The way to personally deal with gun violence is to not buy a gun and otherwise act normal, because in all but a niche set of circumstances the odds of you (anyone reading this) personally actually being a victim of gun violence, let alone white nationalist gun violence, is vanishingly small and warrants no change in your behavior.
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Postby endless dave » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:24 pm

I mean, frustrating or not, the “other option” is to not buy the thing that will, if ever used, much more likely kill someone they know or themselves than any sort of person threatening them

The idea that a gun will ever be of use in protecting yourself against a violent threat is a major part of the reason we’re here in the first place
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Postby big zorb » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:26 pm

i don't think being a victim of white nationalist gun violence is vanishingly small unless you mean like in comparison to 1858 or something. what is the way to personally deal with gun violence?
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Postby big zorb » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:27 pm

endless dave wrote:I mean, frustrating or not, the “other option” is to not buy the thing that will, if ever used, much more likely kill someone they know or themselves than any sort of person threatening them

The idea that a gun will ever be of use in protecting yourself against a violent threat is a major part of the reason we’re here in the first place


i guess the same question to you as to draw: what is the personal response, then, to white supremacist-motivated mass murder?
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Postby naturemorte » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:28 pm

grace cathedral park wrote:mass shootings are state-sanctioned violence at this point

Yup
These killings are really more like extreme manifestations of the same logic that drives law enforcement in this country. The actions of this killer are explicitly conceived as a form of deterrence, just as good separation and mass detention are. Trump's refusal to name these killings terrorism, or his administration's refusal to investigate them as such, is not just about playing to his base--it's a tacit acknowledgment that these actions are effectively extrajudicial actions on the part of the state, a la the mass murder taking place in the Philippines under Duterte.
To call it terrorism would be tantamount to calling ICE terrorists--which they 100% are
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Postby draw » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:32 pm

big zorb wrote:i don't think being a victim of white nationalist gun violence is vanishingly small unless you mean like in comparison to 1858 or something. what is the way to personally deal with gun violence?

There are under 100 extremist-related killings every year. Note I am not at all trying to diminish these tragedies and think we ought to take political measures to reduce their likelihood, but in a country with 320 million people, it's not something almost anyone should worry about personally happening to them. Similar risk assessment is what leads right wingers in the US to get whipped up into a frenzy about being blown up by ISIS or MS13 whatever.
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Postby big zorb » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:35 pm

draw wrote:
big zorb wrote:i don't think being a victim of white nationalist gun violence is vanishingly small unless you mean like in comparison to 1858 or something. what is the way to personally deal with gun violence?

There are under 100 extremist-related killings every year. Note I am not at all trying to diminish these tragedies and think we ought to take political measures to reduce their likelihood, but in a country with 320 million people, it's not something almost anyone should worry about personally happening to them. Similar risk assessment is what leads right wingers in the US to get whipped up into a frenzy about being blown up by ISIS or MS13 whatever.


no it's not the same because isis hasn't really blown up anyone here and ms13 doesn't regularly gun down 10-20 people because of supremacist views

i think you're kind of failing to engage with reality here which is that white supremacists feel increasingly emboldened and this country is doing nothing to stop them

also fuck off, i do have a reason to be personally worried and i also have a reason to be worried about my coworkers
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Postby palmer eldritch » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:36 pm

you are much more likely to be killed by a car. or your own gun.
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Postby big zorb » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:36 pm

also that's a stupid comparison because the right wing response to a perceived isis threat is to establish things like a no-fly list, i am saying i can understand why people feel that their government has failed to protect them from a white supremacist threat. they're literally diametrically opposite responses.
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Postby big zorb » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:37 pm

palmer eldritch wrote:you are much more likely to be killed by a car. or your own gun.


i don't own either so the threat to kill each one of our staff one by one remains top of the list for me, personally
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Postby endless dave » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:37 pm

big zorb wrote:
endless dave wrote:I mean, frustrating or not, the “other option” is to not buy the thing that will, if ever used, much more likely kill someone they know or themselves than any sort of person threatening them

The idea that a gun will ever be of use in protecting yourself against a violent threat is a major part of the reason we’re here in the first place


i guess the same question to you as to draw: what is the personal response, then, to white supremacist-motivated mass murder?


Position your time, energy, and money you’d spend on a gun towards an organization or protest or activists that are working towards other root causes of the problem

Or literally anything else other than benefiting the people and companies profiting from the whole thing
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Postby Durham » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:39 pm

Viewed as terrorism and state sanctioned violence on a relatively small scale with the goal of deterrence, the solution presents itself as resistance to change in your behavior while simultaneously addressing the root causes, which is why making it harder to get guns is so important because it further deters what is still statistically minuscule (albeit globally aberrant) chances of white supremacist terror. Arming oneself in retaliation functions much like invading Afghanistan in 2001. It just leads to more violence
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Postby Macgregor » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:41 pm

big zorb wrote:what is the personal response, then, to white supremacist-motivated mass murder?

Image
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Postby big zorb » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:41 pm

Durham wrote:Viewed as terrorism and state sanctioned violence on a relatively small scale with the goal of deterrence, the solution presents itself as resistance to change in your behavior while simultaneously addressing the root causes, which is why making it harder to get guns is so important because it further deters what is still statistically minuscule (albeit globally aberrant) chances of white supremacist terror. Arming oneself in retaliation functions much like invading Afghanistan in 2001. It just leads to more violence


what i am suggesting is that this nation is doomed beyond the point of being able to make it functionally harder to get guns
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Postby draw » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:42 pm

I'll give you that, zorb
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Postby dubs » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:42 pm

draw wrote:There are a lot options for solving the social problem of gun violence because the underlying causes are heterogeneous, some combination of drug legalization & increased funding/attention to mental health.


Genuinely curious to folks opinions on this -

wrt funding/attention to mental health as a valid response, do you think the increase in these types of blatant hate crime inspired mass shootings are a bit different than something like sandy hook or aurora?
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Postby endless dave » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:44 pm

Maybe “mental health” is maybe a bit too reductive of a way to call it but there is absolutely something to be said to explore and treat the issue of these Internet poisoned white 20 year olds finding solace in places like 8chan

As a parallel, you can absolutely see places like incel forums where users are basically spiraling into depression and the people encourage forms of mental and physical self harm and catastrophic thinking
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Postby Durham » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:48 pm

Yeah, there’s an explicit and coherent motivation behind these and it’s part and parcel of the ruling party in this country. Naturemorte is as usual right on the money comparing this to Duterte which I don’t think I’d read anywhere but makes so much sense
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Postby dubs » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:48 pm

endless dave wrote:Maybe “mental health” is maybe a bit too reductive if a way to call it but there is absolutely something to be said to explore and treat the issue of these Internet poisoned white 20 year olds finding solace in places like 8chan


Yeah that I can agree with. I think we’re clearly dealing with two different beasts between mental health and being poisoned by internet shit holes and the latter seems way more difficult to find a solution to.
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Postby big zorb » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:50 pm

you can't legislate the latter and it's going to get worse
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Postby big zorb » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:53 pm

you could pass some legislation to deal with the very real national mental health crises in our country and theoretically you could pass gun legislation except that will never happen but how exactly are you going to stop the radicalization and increased violence of white supremacists within a government that fails to even fucking half-heartedly condemn it
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Postby endless dave » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:54 pm

If you find value in and can’t move past fatalism around the issue, which makes some sense, fine, but to go back to the start of this conversation- buying and carrying a gun actively makes it worse so maybe we don’t have a good answer yet but there is absolutely a bad answer to the problem
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Postby Durham » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:54 pm

mental health like all health in this country is too expensive and cumbersome to access for those who need it most. actually those that need it most are probably in jail going insane

between incarceration/mental health, access to guns, the cost of health care, the privatization and destruction of public education and its prohibitive cost after 12th grade—pretty much every social ill in this country is interlinked in this miasma of constant suffering, and has been comparatively eradicated in the oecd countries. the us is just a thunderdome with a great entertainment industry
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Postby Bob511 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:56 pm

big zorb wrote:As I said to easy, i agree with you in theory bob, and my bad about the post at the top. But i do empathize with people who have concluded otherwise and honestly i wonder if there are actually other options or if we don't want to face the reality of no coming gun legislation and an increasingly mobilized white supremacist violent reality.
What gets to me about validating that conclusion is that the person who has concluded otherwise would still not just be wrong, but--even if the anxiety is undeniably real, and since we've all been culturally conditioned to equate firearms and agency, the specific situation you're talking about would almost certainly be well-intentioned--the price of that improved peace of mind (and that's the only predictable benefit that could come from it) would be paid (wholly or in part) by an increased chance of physical harm to those around them.

Even in the complete absence of any other options, the horrible status quo with more guns at its flashpoints is a worse option than the horrible status quo.
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Postby Bob511 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:58 pm

Truly, I do think there's real harm in expressing "getting" (not just as a misguided emotional impulse) self-arming itself as protection against unpredictable violence, or the intermittent arguments for self-protection through gun ownership that have been popping up on the left of our politics, in a time where mandatory arming of school teachers is an option being pushed on that very same mythology. I really just don't think that's ground that should be granted an inch.
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Postby endless dave » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:00 am

I still get angry thinking about that article Kim Kelly wrote about how important it is for “the left” to arm themselves and for Vox of all places to publish it
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Postby Durham » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:01 am

I think zorb is making the reasonable deduction that if someone has to have the nth gun, better it be in my hands than in the right wing nutjob’s. but that’s a false choice as one can work toward a future without guns or at least fewer. But then that flies in the face of 500 years of history on this continent so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Postby Bob511 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:06 am

I think the formulation is more like "better that it be in my (or a co-worker's) hands and in the right-wing nutjob's, than just in the right-wing nutjob's."

But it's not better, and the fact that reasonable people can push aside all the evidence that it's not better really is dispiriting evidence of how poisoned all of our brains are about guns.
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