The 2020 Primary

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Postby bruceagain » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:41 am

what good is rhetoric that doesn't persuade
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Postby saranclaps » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:43 am

scrambled wrote:are you supposed to be insanely stimulated by all political rhetoric

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Postby KALM » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:57 am

palmer eldritch wrote:I read all that and I still don't have a sense of what Buttigieg wants to do exactly or where he thinks these problems come from.

seems pretty straightforward to me. HR1 + abolish the electoral college and the filibuster + DC and Puerto Rico statehood + court packing

and he thinks our problems come from features of our democratic and political system that make it unresponsive to the popular will, with all of the above constituting a serious step in the right direction to counteract those trends. that message seemed to resonate with at least some people in this thread. i'm not optimistic that it will have much broader support than that, but the prospects for a lot of progressive ambitions hinge on me being wrong there.

edit: also i quoted a new yorker interview, but if you want the stump speech version, here's the transcript from him announcing his candidacy

And now let’s talk about democracy. Because no issue we care about, from gun safety to immigration, from climate to education to paid family leave, will be handled well unless our democracy is in better shape.

Our democratic republic is an elegant system but lately it hasn't been quite democratic enough.

It's not democratic enough if legitimate voters are denied the opportunity to exercise their rights because one side thinks as a matter of political strategy that they're better off if fewer citizens are able to vote.

It’s hardly a democracy if “Citizens United” means dollars can drown out the will of the people.

It’s not much of a republic if our districts are drawn so that politicians choose their voters rather than the other way around.

It’s nowhere near the democracy I swore to protect, when U.S. citizens from Washington, D.C. to Puerto Rico don’t even have the same political representation as the rest of us.

And we can’t say it’s much of a democracy when twice in my lifetime, the Electoral College has overruled the American people.

Why should our vote in Indiana count just once or twice a century? Or your vote in Wyoming or New York?

So let’s make it easier to register and to vote; let’s make our districts fairer, our courts less political, our structures more inclusive; and yes let’s pick our president by counting up all the ballots and giving it to the woman or man who got the most votes!
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Postby shark week » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:00 am

surly wrote:even with widespread appetite and movement toward progressive policy goals, republicans will hold at least 41 seats thanks to geography and voter suppression and it should be pretty clear after eight years of obama and 2 years of trump that the bully pulpit is a fiction


i'm not denying 41 gop seats. my wildest imagination sees a 5 seat pick-up. that would be insane.

but how does presidential bully pulpit do for popular policies?

Obama used his bully pulpit to advocate for bipartisan governing (in his 1st term anyway) and his white house actively stifled progressive grass roots orgs

which of Trump's policy proposals have had widespread support?
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Postby Big Oil » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:28 am

lol

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Postby galactagogue » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:55 am

palmer eldritch wrote:I read all that and I still don't have a sense of what Buttigieg wants to do exactly or where he thinks these problems come from.


nvm i see the specifics but it still reads as rhetoric more than policy when he talks about it. but i dont think that's an accident on his part.
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Postby John Dark » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:19 am

Rhetoric gets you more attention more quickly early on in a primary, which is (and should be) the priority for a candidate who started out with an absolute zero national public profile.
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Postby Beautiful Jugdish » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:47 am

i dunno man ive spent my whole life without every issuing any statements of substance and now look at me. completely dead.
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Postby came to wreck » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:54 am

i get now why beto delayed his report of how much he raised lol
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Postby surly » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:02 am

shark week wrote:
surly wrote:even with widespread appetite and movement toward progressive policy goals, republicans will hold at least 41 seats thanks to geography and voter suppression and it should be pretty clear after eight years of obama and 2 years of trump that the bully pulpit is a fiction


i'm not denying 41 gop seats. my wildest imagination sees a 5 seat pick-up. that would be insane.

but how does presidential bully pulpit do for popular policies?

Obama used his bully pulpit to advocate for bipartisan governing (in his 1st term anyway) and his white house actively stifled progressive grass roots orgs

which of Trump's policy proposals have had widespread support?

i just don't see, given what we've seen from the GOP in recent years, how the bully pulpit can overcome republicans' propensity for entrenchment.
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Postby Celiac » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:04 am

Bernie got the Cardi B endorsement again
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Postby Slamwich Artist » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:09 am

Celiac wrote:Bernie got the Cardi B endorsement again

However, Cardi B also expressed interest in Rep. Tim Ryan (D-Ohio), who is also running for president in 2020.

“I was watching the news, and I saw this guy named Tim Ryan. And his speech was very convincing to me,” Cardi B said.
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Postby Celiac » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:13 am

The duality of cardi
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Postby mcwop23 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:14 am

is bernie or warren pres yet
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Postby Feech La Manna » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:23 am

Still laughing at Mayor Pete making Everlast an across-the-aisle anthem
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Postby palmer eldritch » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:31 am

KALM wrote:
palmer eldritch wrote:I read all that and I still don't have a sense of what Buttigieg wants to do exactly or where he thinks these problems come from.

seems pretty straightforward to me. HR1 + abolish the electoral college and the filibuster + DC and Puerto Rico statehood + court packing

and he thinks our problems come from features of our democratic and political system that make it unresponsive to the popular will, with all of the above constituting a serious step in the right direction to counteract those trends. that message seemed to resonate with at least some people in this thread. i'm not optimistic that it will have much broader support than that, but the prospects for a lot of progressive ambitions hinge on me being wrong there.

edit: also i quoted a new yorker interview, but if you want the stump speech version, here's the transcript from him announcing his candidacy

And now let’s talk about democracy. Because no issue we care about, from gun safety to immigration, from climate to education to paid family leave, will be handled well unless our democracy is in better shape.

Our democratic republic is an elegant system but lately it hasn't been quite democratic enough.

It's not democratic enough if legitimate voters are denied the opportunity to exercise their rights because one side thinks as a matter of political strategy that they're better off if fewer citizens are able to vote.

It’s hardly a democracy if “Citizens United” means dollars can drown out the will of the people.

It’s not much of a republic if our districts are drawn so that politicians choose their voters rather than the other way around.

It’s nowhere near the democracy I swore to protect, when U.S. citizens from Washington, D.C. to Puerto Rico don’t even have the same political representation as the rest of us.

And we can’t say it’s much of a democracy when twice in my lifetime, the Electoral College has overruled the American people.

Why should our vote in Indiana count just once or twice a century? Or your vote in Wyoming or New York?

So let’s make it easier to register and to vote; let’s make our districts fairer, our courts less political, our structures more inclusive; and yes let’s pick our president by counting up all the ballots and giving it to the woman or man who got the most votes!


the New Yorker quote is steeped in that annoying "we need to have a conversation about X" language which is fine in some situations but how hard is it to just say "DC should be a state." the stump speech is a little clearer.

I think I've already talked about how I don't feel like structural changes to our political system will improve outcomes that much. not that I'm necessarily right, and I certainly don't want to like, shit on the idea that much, lol. it just feels like dressing on a wound to me. when I was asking "where does he think these problems come from?" I was wondering if he ever talks about things like structural racism in this country like beto tends to steer the conversation to (even on his opening swing talking to extremely white audiences in Iowa). I tried to google to see Buttigieg's take on it but all I get his "all lives matter" comment and the police tapes scandal. I guess I could just read his speech from his announcement. I GUESS.
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Postby Feech La Manna » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:34 am

I get vibes from him by the way he talks about rural America that he would not want to touch an issue like structural racism with a ten foot pole. But yeah I would guess being Mayor of South Bend'll do that to ya.
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Postby KALM » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:35 am

nah, i don't really think he does

but like i feel pretty confident that a number of other candidates will hit on those themes plenty in the primary, so i'm not all that worried about that message being unrepresented
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Postby palmer eldritch » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:41 am

he'll win me over on the structural change argument if he starts campaigning on turning us into a parliamentary democracy

(not that I think parliamentary democracies have that much better outcomes, but it would probably make elections a lot easier)
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Postby Feech La Manna » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:42 am



Let's pack the courts and ditch the filibuster so we can pass... tax credits
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Postby Feech La Manna » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:42 am

palmer eldritch wrote:he'll win me over on the structural change argument if he starts campaigning on turning us into a parliamentary democracy


actually yeah this kind of candidate would be sick as hell
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Postby KALM » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:45 am

i think first we need to come up with a name for that system that doesn't remind people too much of europe
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Postby John Dark » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:48 am

KALM wrote:i think first we need to come up with a name for that system that doesn't remind people too much of europe


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Postby Feech La Manna » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:48 am

I think Americans would actually love PMQs
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Postby blurst of times » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:49 am

KALM wrote:i think first we need to come up with a name for that system that doesn't remind people too much of europe


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Postby Feech La Manna » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:54 am

The major obstacle to someone running like that would be this country's dumb blind reverence for the Constitution. The brainwashing goes deep.
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Postby big zorb » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:03 am

Feech La Manna wrote:The major obstacle to someone running like that would be this country's dumb blind reverence for the Constitution. The brainwashing goes deep.


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Postby KALM » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:03 am

matt yglesias is fond of pointing out that as members of an occupying authority, the US had a pretty big say in how countries like germany and japan would reconstitute themselves and reshape their political systems following world war II, and we made it a point not to recommend any of the key features of our own government to them in that process
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Postby Feech La Manna » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:21 am



oh well, okay
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Postby palmer eldritch » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:33 am

she sucks so much
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